Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Ordained on the same auspicious day the Buddha gave his first teaching, Khensur Rinpoche uses this 91-minute interview at Buddha House to trace his monastic life at Sera Je monastery in Tibet. He walks through the structure of the great inter-monastic winter debates — who attended, how students were evaluated by the abbot, and what happened if you debated poorly — then moves through a succession of Sera Je abbots across the 1950s, sketching a personal detail for each. He explains how abbots were nominated by district councils and approved by the Dalai Lama in Tibet, and how that process became more democratic in the Indian exile community. The dissolution of Sera after 1959, his novice and full ordination ceremonies, and receiving the Vajrayoginī initiation from Trichang Rinpoche round out the main threads. An intimate oral history suited to those with an interest in traditional Tibetan monastic institutions.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 49 RS 1991 05 10.mp3
UUID: 30168b8b-7b14-4742-860c-9bbe31e04cc0
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1991-05-10
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 91.6 minutes
Words: ~4,833
Sunday, the twelfth of May nineteen ninety one. I’m interviewing Rinpoche at Buddha House. This is when the torch battery — so the electricity’s gone. Mhmm. Alright.
Can you say that But this this is on. Maybe it’s a different plug. Must be. It’s real. Where is it?
Where is it? The person who sit and answer. So that’s what they call this debate, this particular debate. So so on occasions, is it correct that Rinpoche has debated on his own all night as well as with a partner at that time? On his own?
Yeah. You know, being the answer all on his own or only with a partner. There’s always at least two. There’s always there’s always two people. Ah.
Right. Answering. Two. And so it was only ever the senior monks that were good at debate that would go to this, isn’t it? So the younger students wouldn’t go.
It’s just the the older students would go. But of the older students also, only the older ones? So just the better students would go. But in the beginning, even the younger students would be there because they would begin from the beginning of the text. But then it would reach a point where they would no longer they wouldn’t remain any longer because it was past where they had studied, and then they would leave.
And the older ones were in Maine. So initially, even the younger ones would go, but eventually they would progress through the text. Just the older monks were left. So the The very beginning students wouldn’t come to this debate. And that they would stay.
The people who came would stay. It wasn’t a matter of that they would leave. But the very young ones would they would have to ask permission because it was very crowded to come. They might be studying subjects at their various colleges. Many of them have not been studying.
So it might be just sufficient to say here that just the better students would attend this debate session. And that, you know, that they it was according to how much Namdral they had studied. You know, though they might be have be good in other areas, you know, like Uma and things like Parcen and things like that. They might not have studied Namdral very much according to their the the way their particular college proceeded. And so was only those who had gone far in Namdral who would stay come to this debate, though the other students might be just as good in other subjects.
The fact is they hadn’t studied this. Those who had just begun the studies of Namdral, they would have a separate debate for them. So at this debate, it was just the older ones. But actually, just to clarify for me, the others were sitting around still listening, were they, somewhere in the background? There was another debate for those who were just beginning.
Well, we’ve got the old ones and the beginning ones, but there must be a big category in between. Beginning. No. The beginning one beginning, but the medium. The middle is I mean, there’s a whole lot of classes that went that went over eight year period.
Many different debate groups going on at the same time. That’s where it was on a big plane, So there’d be different there’d be different groups. They had one one one for, like, dudra and dhara, one for beginning Namdral. And then but the the one that Rinpoche is referring to was just the older monks who had been studying Namdral for some time. Sometimes I just don’t have a picture in my mind.
It’s confusing. That’s been useful. The time that he was with there was a time, anyway, when he was with I think we’ve got his name better spelled, I think Chünze Lama. When does that have to be? G.
That was his name. Is that is that the name of a camsun? No. I would eventually make up a list of all the terms that that need to be spelled. And then can go through with the — if you can spell them in Tibetan.
Then we can get a very accurate transcription. Because here, it’s just in this I think that would be the most recognize. He’ll sort of doing it in He represented? They would name them after people would take the name of where they came from, and and Khamsan were areas, actual places where where people had come from. So in a few cases, people would take on the name of where they had come from.
Like in Tenzin Dage. Oh, Doug. Did because he came from there. Yeah. But I thought I thought he did.
It’s not but sometimes I like this What’s that big area though? That’s just a name that he he picked So, I mean, for example, in the case of, he’s not sure where he got that name, but it he thinks it might be from the place he came from, that he picked up the name. Many people come from they use other than their actual names for different reasons. But he’s not sure. Thinks it might be from where he came from.
This filling come? Do you have a machine? Another shampoo or any Can we call them up now? This is Rinpoche’s particular one. It was So is where it came from.
Means rich. Truck. Truck. Good thing there. Rich.
Many Matsang is I guess you’d translate he he who is And Pu. The man. The man who is rich from Rittown. Something like that. That’s very clear.
Eyes. Other spiritual Yeah. They would they would do that. I’ll take mommy. Everyone does.
No. Do have blue blueies for a redhead and stubby for someone who’s sure? Good job. Money. Did they still call him that after he spent it all or was poor?
We’re going to Rotugompa. So his his house was next to the water. They all weren’t as near to the water as he as his house was. Wonderful. So they called him the boy from the the boy from the near the near the water.
And that was at Sera they called him that? He lived in a house near the border? Oh. Don’t think that top bit would be static. So it’s because when one of his relatives used to call when he was when he came, his relatives called him chukopo, everybody else picked that up.
Oh, that’s really interesting. I used to be called mouse. Yeah. Somebody was near the last house in the in the village. The boy From the last house.
House. So they would get Or the boy from the house by the cliff or something like that. So they’re often to do with Our first and second brother, is it? So he also had the name? The boy from the last house.
The boy from the last house? In a row. Right. So he could be that as well. That’s interesting.
I thought he was saying about his brothers. What’s the two bit? What’s he saying? Oh, two knee. He might know what they all were.
Is that what he’s implying? The Small little rich boy. Yeah. Yeah. And then Today is that up in the one year or would that have come Today is Monday, May twentieth.
Today is Monday, May twentieth. Coming back from the Jang Günchos, and they would come back to Sera and the college, they would have a debate within the college, J, for example, and the abbot and the gegu, the disciplinarian would come with all the Lharampa Geshe’s would attend. And then the two Geshe’s who were going to sit for their examinations that year would sit and everyone who had attended the would, in turn, debate with these two candidates, Geshe candidates. Just two candidates. Two candidates for Lharampa who would be debating at Monlam would sit and be the answers, and then everyone who had gone to the Jang Günchos, would in turn debate for half an hour, an hour, depending on how many there were, and put questions to them.
So they have to show off this skill in questioning. Well, they had actually studied in The Abbot Wood. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah.
Abbot. Yeah. That’s right. During during that period, by the way they asked questions. Oh, I see.
So in a way they were judged on their questions? The debaters, by the carry on debate. Was there some sort of inform them whether they had debated well or not debated well. If they hadn’t debated well, he said, they wouldn’t be allowed, you haven’t studied well, you won’t be allowed to go to the debate next year. Were there many students in that category?
I would not be allowed to return the next student, but there’s it was just a few, but there were some. So monastery was supplying them with food and place to stay, and it was not proper if they didn’t take advantage of it and study well during that period. With the records of everything, like those that studied well and those that didn’t study well, would a Khenpo just keep it in his head, in his mind, or would he write it down? They keep written records. The have to write it down.
He would he just knows. No. I was I was just interested because in the West, there’s it seems to be this is absolute fixation on everything has to be in writing, and students’ records have to be in Did the Khenpo, did the Abbot tell the students privately if they weren’t going back, or was it sort of he would say to them in public, you haven’t done well enough? During the debate session when the debater had finished his debate, the abbot would say that you studied well or that you didn’t study well, therefore, you know, you won’t — you can’t go next year. So it’d be during the debate session itself.
So Rinpoche said he went eight times altogether, and the first time was in nineteen forty nine. Just checking. And I’ve got here at that time, the Khenpo was Mongolian. I’ve just got it like this. Could you Maybe something like d e n d d a r?
Yeah. I think we may have gone through. May have seen. Fair. So it wasn’t it wasn’t.
It wasn’t first. No. When when you first arrived, said the the abbot’s name was. I’ve got that too, and I was going to check. So he was abbot before.
Yeah. This this first first time. And then subsequent to Nawa Gatsuki, Khenpo Dentar. Now he later returned to Kham. Is that right?
Was he a? Yeah. He was a he was Trehor khamtsen. Tiyu. Tiyu.
Tiyu. Comes in. So he went back. Okay. So and then there was Khenpo Sönam Dorje.
So the next, I think, was Khenpo Dentar. Sorry. I’ll put him second. Yeah. Yeah.
Sorry. And then after him. Okay. So that he would’ve alright. Let’s get the dates.
So that that the Khenpo Ngawang Gyatso would’ve gone back about nineteen fifty one, and then the the Khenpo Nawang Gyatso back about nineteen fifty. Nineteen fifty. Maybe. One to nineteen fifty two. Nineteen fifty to ‘fifty two.
Something like that. Then, Khenpo Dentar Gyatso. What Dodo. Said said Dodo. Said Dodo.
Dodo. It’s a golden ball. This is fat. So that was about nineteen fifty three, presumably. Well, remember it had to be in fifty two, sometimes.
Were? I mean, don’t think it would be the winter period where there was no kenpel. Was there any particular time of year when the kenpel would change, mean, generally, first off, generally the term of Abbott was seven years, but that was not necessarily so. That was generally the but then there was no particular time during the course of the year that a new abbot would take over. So none of these abbot steachings hit anywhere near that length of time?
Is that the maximum perhaps the same? To to to ring shock. That’s the maximum percentage. Right. But perhaps in So right on it.
I came from Nawan Yatso. He was the abbot before I arrived. He was abbot for about four or five years. And then the others were Abbotts for maybe two or three. Oh, yes.
Raj. Yeah. Them His face shine like gold. His face did. Yeah.
Oh, I’ve got that he was fat in his yellow robes just fat and short and had a big round face which kind of glowed like gold, shown like gold. Oh, that’s lovely. It glowed like gold. Okay. So he got his nickname from his appearance in talking about this Compact.
I think compact. Small and compact. Small and compact. Okay. Did all was it usual for all the abbots to get some sort of a sort of private name?
The Khenpo Khenpo Ganga. No. So I mean, he this he it’s not that’s not usual. He had this name before he became abbot. He just they just kept referring to him after he became abbot by that name.
Oh, I see. So when Rinpochev was was abbot, he didn’t have a special name, the rich boy from the village. Abbott Abbott. Can I come with you too? He doesn’t know.
So it’s possible that people gave him a name. But he was Abbott for two years, so I’m I’m a bit confused whether that would be then about nineteen fifty two to fifty three, wouldn’t it? Because the other one, we’ve got fifty to fifty two. So that would be, what, fifty two to fifty three. Oh, With with that phone more Then can Kimpel So is this the new one?
It’s a kumsan. It comes from the kumsan. So his his district council is tsangpa, t s a n g L h u n d r u b t a b k y k e y. No. K e.
K e. K K e. E. This one will be k e two, wouldn’t it? No.
That’s different. That’s That’s. It’s. So that’s from sang, is it? The comes in from the sang area?
Is that Sang. Yeah. How many days how many years do you have there? Pardon? How many years do you have that he mishap?
I think he started in fifty five, then in fifty seven, he finished his term, but that doesn’t add up. No. She She’s done well. Thank it? Maybe.
What do you have? Well, it depends whether we we give Sonam nineteen fifty two to nineteen fifty four. That’s right. And then that would make it about Fifty two. Fifty four Fifty seven.
To fifty seven. Fifty seven? Alright. Yeah. Yeah.
I’ve got that because And then and then fifty eight to fifty nine was was the Trejo comes in. Khenpo. Gamut. It must be another luxury. Believe it.
Did he escape after It was in fifty nine. But he didn’t did he live before or after Rinpoche? Can the party? Same month. I mean, it wasn’t the same group.
It was the same month. You had that that. Just a month. Yeah. Yeah.
Baxala. So this was at Baxala. Oh, at Baxala. Baxala. So what actually does Rinpoche know what actually happened in Lhasa after that?
Was there still a Khenpo that stayed at Sera in Lhasa? After the uprising? Yeah. I’m not sure. They might What what happened?
Does he have any knowledge what happened? There weren’t any monks? There weren’t there wasn’t a monastery there? Nothing. There wasn’t an abbot?
Not even one. So, I mean, some some of the monks were put in prison. Some of them and the the ones that could work were put to work, on road work and things like that. I I don’t know if had the mistaken idea that there were a few left because yeah. I don’t know.
Was there any selection process that the the Khenpo would come from a different khamsan so to give to circulate the khamsans, or was it just pure chance? The camp the So the the the process was that the individual councils, district councils, vote on a nomination for an abbot, and then the names were then presented to the Dalai Lama, and he would choose amongst those presented to him. So there’d be one from each consul, That means A nomination. So each district council would nominate one person. This person wouldn’t necessarily be from their comp center.
Just whoever they thought would be the best abbot. That they would then they would make up a list and each comes in was had the the power to put nominate one person. It wouldn’t necessarily be from their their district. So so in other words, it wouldn’t always be. That’s right.
That’s right. Just whoever they they thought would be the best person with the Abbott, even if it wasn’t from their district house. Was it usual that they would elect someone from another country? No. I’m getting there.
It says it comes in you don’t get a bit. Whoever just it wouldn’t necessarily be from their own consort. Just whoever they thought was best. So then Khenpo Champe Terte served as abbot until about nineteen sixty six. And then Khenpo Tardin from Trehor khamsan?
From Trehor? The next one was from Trehor? After. And Trehor khamsan there. Trehor. And then the last, Dendrub.
D e n d r u b. Togya. T o g. T T g g y e. And this was the remember Jay’s first teacher who taught him the text when he came?
From Sera Sera Je, Thomas Pepte. Yeah. That was his first teacher when he came to Sera. Was So then in India, they changed the method of. So then they changed slightly the way of selecting the Abbott.
It wasn’t like the khamsans didn’t nominate, but the whole the entire assembly of monks would nominate various people. They would vote on various candidates. The whole of Sera Je together? Yeah. And then they would present this list of possible nominations to the Dalai Lama.
So, About twelve? Oh, not so many. No. Not many. Maybe four or five candidates.
Pick one. It’s for Sera Je. Sera Je. Kempel. And is Sera Mae Khenpo, they similar?
Sera Je. Was was that because there were far less people, far less people to choose from just to get from the movie? They look so Was it all white? The western the the adopted more. No.
The western way of selecting the app. So, I mean, really, in back of the the head of the district councils would would would sort of get together and decide who they want to nominate. But then in India, it was more democratic because the monks actually did vote themselves. All the monks from the whole monastery irrespective of their their khamsan. Yeah.
All the monks. Yeah. So they wouldn’t die. They wouldn’t So maybe They they wouldn’t He he was maybe seventy five. Seventy five?
Long time. Maybe about eight While Nineteen eighty three to what year? Eighty. Khensur? Eighty five? Eighty six.
Just some Oh, four. Is she? The monk that gave Rinpoche’s ordination when he became big Yeah. And I know it’s it’s a long name. Oh, right.
Okay. Tipton Jampa. Tipton Tiptonjampa. Tultrim, s u l t r i m. Tinzen Gyatsov.
This is one person. Mhmm. I’ve got a little bit of man in a it was actually a donkey pulling. I’d check right. Then it’s shortening with Jamgon Rinpoche.
Jamgon Rinpoche. Jamgon. Jam, j a j a m g o n, Jam Gon, something like that. Gon. Was that in nineteen forty five?
So he became a novice in nineteen forty five, and then he became a fully ordained in nineteen forty eight. Oh, that’s good. Because I had both dates, and I couldn’t work it out. Oh, okay. So that’s Gelong, is it?
I don’t think he’s got very much details about Rinpoche taking his ordination. I don’t know. He just says I received my ordination from Jamgon Rinpoche before he It doesn’t make any sense. Have a look. Go Geisu.
Did he do a retreat or something? Okay. This place. The which one was it? Which one was it?
The the Jamgon. Yeah. Which one Before I receive my ordainment, it doesn’t say which one. Oh, no. So we really gotta clarify.
I think before he was I think this is Getsel. Novice. Novice. Yes. Could be.
Yeah. Don’t think that’s Gelong Getsul. Oh, so the novice term is? G e t s u l. That’s novice.
Novice man. Yeah. So he was a getsul first. You have to be a novice first. Yeah.
For three years, is it? Yeah. From forty five to forty eight. We Three or forty? Would be yellow.
What you call? Mhmm. Forty five to forty eight. I see. So another question here before we get on to this a bit more detail.
I’ve got there was thirteen. Oh, no. When they did these examinations that we’re talking about when I first came in the Khenpo listened — after they’d been to Jang Guncho. Was that the whole college? What would have been the whole college, not just the kumsums, wouldn’t it?
Good luck. Who who would attend that examination would be just the monks who had gone to. From all of Sera Je? Not just Dre Khamsan. They had one debate where all of the monks who had gone attended the debate session would attend this.
And then after supplicant went to that, each of the district houses would have a debate session where all the monks, even those who didn’t attain enlightenment debate session, would attend this debate at the district house. So, Rinpoche first had the thirty six precepts. Would they be listed? They must be listed somewhere. We’ve got them easily available.
Sticking. I don’t know. It’s necessary to list them. They’re just thirty six. Not printed.
They’re not listed. Now are they called precepts or vows? Same word. Tibetan. Is it?
Yeah. Okay. What’s the term in Tibetan? Dampa, d a m p a. D a m p a.
So Rinpoche became a Gelong on the fourth month — Tibetan fourth month — on the fifteenth day of nineteen forty eight. Is that right? Does the term Gelong mean the same as bhikṣu? It’s a Tibetan word. And bhikṣu is Sanskrit.
Yeah. Comes out like a beak for me. So is that a very special day for Rinpoche? The. So it was it’s very — along with about sixty other monks.
Sixty. Yeah. Well, the twelve were actually officiating. They were part they were part of the same way. They were yeah.
They’re officiating. Oh, That’s necessary, isn’t it? Yeah. To fulfill. Yeah.
And then there were about sixty monks altogether taking the vows. The ceremony began — about ten in the morning. So they go from approximately they start about ten, go to twelve, have lunch at two, and then two to five. Is there a Guru Puja thing?
It’s all — it’s always a whole special ceremony. Nothing other than the actual ritual involved or the ceremony involved in taking the vows. Do they recite all the vows? They Take all day? All the vows at that time, and then monks were three by three, would be taking the vows.
Three by three. Groups of threes at a So that day was actually the day that’s coming up here next Tuesday, isn’t it, that he did the day when the Buddha gave his first teaching and achieved enlightenment and died? Is that that was the day that Rinpoche received his ordination. Is that right? I don’t know what you call it.
What is its name? It’s No, No, son. Is that right? Yeah. That’s right.
Was that that usual for just about all the monks to receive their ordination on that day? So usually the vows were taken on some special day, and this was an extremely special day, so this would often occur, but it wasn’t necessarily so. And so at that time, there’d been many, many other ceremonies. I’ve got here many coaches. Yeah, different offerings, ceremonies, various offerings.
Like, Lama Chöpa, for example, as an offering. So, that would be occurring on that day, just not at the the ordination. That’s right. Yeah. The same day.
What was the letter? Must be a very full day, that one. They go all day and all night. Oh, so this is wrong. From?
No. No. That’s it. Alright. I think we should probably We’ve got it somewhere else.
Know. Yeah. I’ll just sit up. First, received and then Yamataka on the same occasion. Is that right?
Or does that occasion mean how long? Not one day. Must have taken a long time. The Lumrim petty So there’s a but there’s also a day of preparation. So it’s Is that the day?
Entire Oh. The entire ceremony takes two days. Alright. Can you just imagine? A bull.
A cat. Right now. He’s a female. Yeah. This is a zo.
A zo? Yeah. All of them. Is that female. That’s zo.
Right? Is it? Yeah. Is it the the cross of dzo with the with the bull? And that gives you Well, why have I got Guru Samadas?
I’ve started not That’s Sanskrit. Oh, I see. It was Sanskrit in Tibetan. Yeah. In English.
So Guru Samantabhādra is not spelled correctly. No. I can’t I can tell that. Do you wanna start from Oh, I know. Well, you better look it up.
Look it up. Yeah. It’s alright. I undertook a commitment that time too. Is that not the same Better than part of the same thing?
Separate? Yeah. Okay. Is that right? Would that be correct to say that?
Yeah. Then Then I received Vajrayoginī initiation and commitment from Ling Rinpoche’s share of Gum. Is that right? And get the So he didn’t receive any teachings from Lingbang Pichai and Tibet? Oh.
Or in Prominent? Between the the the the were you receiving teachings on on the Guru Puja. Yeah. From receiving that teaching to to taking the this Vajrayoginī initiation. It was about two years.
Alright. Then Right. About two years later. Okay. Later, received the Vajrayoginī initiation and commitment from Trichang Rinpoche at Shide Dratsang, is it?
Yeah. So does junior doesn’t what does junior imply? Less senior than No. No. That’s not Yes.
I mean, maybe to all Western Americans. I guess. Probably. I don’t know. Maybe they’ve come up with better words.
Don’t know if that’s the word that’s been used. It doesn’t The point of view of when they first began to teach his holiness. So it’s the senior senior, the elder the elder tutor, and the senior tutor, the or however you want. So it’s just a matter of time. First, began, who was his tutor, and then subsequently, had to retreat to Rinpoche.
So one was senior to the other, from the point of view of time. Left hand picture? Oh, yeah. The big picture is. But on the the picture of on the left side, the big picture of.
And then Dalai Lama. So that was. To the left is. And then to the right is. I’ll have a look.
I’ll bring them on Friday, the ones I’ve got. And so so didn’t go all the way outside. Someone would go all the way outside. Uh-huh. And there’d be dirt.
Yeah. So the inside was just wood. Mhmm. And the outside, they put earth with a chimney. Did Rinpoche’s family have servants?
Because they they had so many animals and such a small family. They must have had some helpers. So they didn’t have any servants. They had two male and one female servant. Alright.
And did they live in the house too? Yep. So one of them stayed with the animal? Downstairs. Up on the no.
Up on the on the mountain. Oh, right. They would take care of their their zos. And then the other two had their own other two servants had their own house outside of their house. They didn’t live in the house.
They had their own rooms. More. Yeah. They didn’t stay and live in the house. So they had one child themselves.
Yeah. The the couple. Yeah. Koko and the king. Oh.
So, yeah, the the man and the man and wife and wife and child. One question that I didn’t ask last week. Like, was there I mean, was the structure of the village, was there a head head man or someone in charge or what? So there was this head person. They call him.
Uh-huh.