Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 88-minute archival session, Khensur Rinpoche maps the structure of the traditional Geshe degree curriculum with a researcher compiling what appears to be a reference guide. He explains how Sera Monastery’s parallel class tracks — one studying in depth, one at pace — converge when Prajñāpāramitā study begins around class four, anchored in the Ornament for Clear Realization through class eight, a span of roughly six years. He clarifies what each year covers — collected topics, valid cognition, minds and mental factors, definitive and interpretive sutras, dependent arising — and how monastic divination determines which subjects a class emphasizes. A substantial portion covers the 1984 reestablishment of the all-night inter-monastic debate tradition in India, starting at Ganden and rotating through Sera and Drepung, with practical detail on transport, food, and accommodation. Best suited to those researching traditional Tibetan monastic education.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 48 RS 1991 05 13.mp3
UUID: 1e1ff917-46e9-4265-a2ca-f2821cdec86c
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1991-05-13
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 88.5 minutes
Words: ~6,774
You say it, and I’ll see you. The session today is Monday. According to the that that what they study is dependent upon. They do have been the abbot does a divination. Oh, this is chapter this is class six, isn’t it?
So what they they could study various subjects, but what they do study is dependent upon divination. And when when Rinpoche studied Sukhusarpaa, they studied trangné, definitive and interpretive. Trung definitive and interpretive. I think you have that written somewhere. Definitive and interpretive sutures and dependent arising.
So first it’s to consider this a very important class. So, first they have an assembly of monks and they do special ceremonies in order to get rid of any types of obstacles to the successful completion of their studies in this class. And then a divination is made as to what they should study. And when Rinpoche studied it, they studied this Definitive and Interpretive Sutras. But other subjects that they might study would be dependent arising, the twenty-one spiritual communities.
Another topic would be they could they could study would be this twenty one spiritual communities. Then there’s another text. Its name is called Form. Concentrations and Form levels. Samsog.
Samsook. So this is This is trongne. Mhmm. Like, definitive and interpretive, dependent arising, dependent arising. What sorry.
What’s this one? Trongne. How do spell t Trongne. T r a n g? T r a n g.
N g e. N g e. Trang ni. Yeah. dependent arising.
Dendra. Dendra. Dendra. Dendra. Dendra.
Dendra. Dendra. What’s that? G. Oh, okay.
Gendun nyishu. That’s twenty-one spiritual communities. That’s right. Now are these all parts of ornament still? These are all mentioned in this in this first verse, initial verses clear realization.
And then these subjects are mentioned, but then they go to other texts in order to for extensive explanation. So they’re always looking at other commentaries and also various commentaries and their individual college textbook systems. And so they look at the or ornament per clear realization and certain subjects they’ll go to other commentaries which give a much more expanded and detailed explanation of that subject which is treated very briefly. So these are all, everything is included in ornament. It’s included in the study of ornament, but they’re going to go to various Indian and Tibetan commentaries in order to get more elaborate explanation.
One main commentary is to ornament that they make use of. Extra commentaries outside of the book itself. There’s a there’s a text ornament, and then there’s twenty one commentaries in order to understand it in detail. So so some of these, they treat, you know, they are trying to the definitive interpret interpretively takes then they go to that to study that subject. Yeah.
And they go to another one to to study the twenty one spiritual community. So they’re going to various appropriate Yeah. Commentaries in order to get a more elaborate explanation. So that in in fact, it’s far too much for them to study in any one time, and that’s why they do the to just sort of decide what they’ll study in-depth for that year. Is that would that be right?
There’s more than anyone could could cover. Which would be the reason they do a venation to see which was most auspicious for this particular class to study. They just have a tradition that if, for example, if they were to, if it comes out then that they’re supposed to study definitive interprets sutras, the text that, then this is a sign that maybe someone in that class will become the Ganden Tripa, the throne holder of Ganden. Or if they have to study the dependent arising, that means that this class is auspicious that they’re going to be able to practice very well. And if they have to study the twenty one spiritual communities, that means that they’ll probably be a very good class in tech, in the studying of techs.
So it’s just what is most auspicious for this particular class. In the Shagamare. So you can you can make these two different classes. And then This is. And then And just make another class.
But so you can, as far as what they study, you can say that in the Sukhoi Sarpa, they study definitive interpretive sutras. And then they also study Kunshi which is the mind basis of all. So this is Sarpa. Sukrasarpa. Yeah.
They study trung mei? Yes. Yeah. They study definitive and interpretive, and they also study Which No. Okay.
This the. Yeah. They all they study is Yeah. Definitive interpretive. It’s fine.
I was thinking really good. Then then the the Yep. Study all of these. Then the the dependent arising, twenty one spiritual communities, concentrations of form with four Buddha bodies. And then within this is Kunshi or mind basis of all.
That’s the last subject. Mind basis of all. Basis or basis? Basis. Maybe base basis.
The the foundation. So I’ll I’ll get the Tibetan bits off you later. Is that Kunshi? Kunshi. Kunshi.
And what was this one? Twenty spiritual communities? I’ve got that on my Twenty one. Oh, No. No.
No. Twenty one. Twenty. I’m sorry. That’s twenty.
Twenty? Yeah. Twenty. That’s alright. So that’s the same.
Mhmm. Meditative content. Kushi. Kushi. Oh, that’s fine.
That’s wrong. This is Kushi. Four Buddha bodies. Oh, that’s cushion. Okay.
Mhmm. And the the this concentration of form. No. Oh, yeah. I was right.
This is my basis of all. It would be the mind basis of all. Okay. So there’s no four Buddha bodies there? No.
Gone. So Rinpoche is saying now that it will be alright if I just give it a number in the sequence like seven. The the suprasarpal, the lingua, Yeah. That’s But, actually, what it’s doing is going back to and continuing on from there in less detail than what they did in So were were individual classes, and so can be individual classes. Individual class.
You can list them as individual class. Okay. What what why have I linked it up to this one, though? It was as if he wanted it linked up to this five and five a, and No. Yeah.
He there’s a there’s there’s a system there was a system where they combined with each other from time to time. Oh, the two classes. Yeah. This is to simplify it. Just make it two classes.
Used here. I don’t quite know. Maybe this is all in class seven. Then I start class eight here. I’m gonna all these sections.
Oh, sorry. Sorry. Pachin. Pachin. Pachin.
Pachin. Pachin. Pachin. Starts. That’s when Pachin starts.
I don’t know. Yes. So you can So in the this is so so so what happens, the reason that there was this confusion was with Sukkur. It was that when they get to Parchan, the eighth, what’s gonna be number eight, the Sukho, Sarpa, and Ningba combine into one class. So one class has actually taken longer to cover the same subjects than the other.
Class goes very quickly and one class goes slower so that they come to the same point. The one class covers the same material. There’s there’s the and. The Sarpa, they both cover the same material, but the Nimba covers it over a longer period of time so that they they come to the same point and then they combine classes when they begin Pachin. See, they’ve been one year after another Yeah.
Up to the when they get to Sukhoi. And the the older class continues on studying each year, but then the the the will study all of what the does, but in a shorter period of time. So then they they reach the same place. Yeah. And then they combine classes.
Does that mean that every second year, the class studies an extra year, the in-depth year? That’s right. And it happened to be in that year where he did that whole year. Is that is that have I got it wrong? So almost like every second year, they add in a year for intensive study?
Yes. Rinpoche was involved in in the longer study period of classes. For example, Rinpoche took one year to study definitive and interpretive. The class beneath them took six months to study the same text. They were catching up.
This is why eventually they will catch up and then they will combine classes. So they study the same subjects but much quicker. That’s why there was some confusion here. Is there any reason for that? By this time, the the the the students are becoming fewer and fewer, and so they want a bigger class.
So then so they their students are becoming less and less by this time. So in order to get a big class, they combine two. Right. So more or less at random, the one class studies at two years and the second one just does it quicker to Does it quicker. And then they then they they both they cover them the same material, but one class has studied more slowly, and then they combine at.
So this this whole page then seem to have quite a lot of details, don’t I? Is this we’re still on ornament? I’ve got section two, section three. Is this ornament? Yeah.
Yeah. These are chapters rather than section. Chapters. I don’t know. Don’t know.
It’s just that one chapter took a whole year. The chapter gives the ideas. I don’t that’s very confusing. And then parts is in there. This is all back to ornament again, isn’t it?
Yeah. It is. Yeah. That’s right. They’re always studying ornament in some way.
They may go off to some commentary for a special subject. Going off to a commentary. Or they just it’s Prajñāpāramitā. Yeah. Ah.
But for me to clarify, Prajñāpāramitā starts in class four. Is that right, really? Yeah. I understand. And it goes all the way down.
Yeah. I’m just So eight, at least, to eight. Yeah? Yeah. Can you stop there?
Yeah. That’s right. One, two, three. One, two, three. So five classes really covered in Prajñāpāramitā.
Yeah. That’s right. It’s twelve thirty. Then then it just goes through these various chapters, and each of the chapters has various topics that they take up. So probably this is pretty straightforward that I’ve got for the next page of survival.
Photocopy that. Yeah. That’s right. Yeah. You know, with the the the remaining classes, Pachin, they it’s gonna take up the remaining seven chapters, which each of the various topics.
Each of them have various topics or So we’ve got it virtually all here quite clearly. I’m just alright. That seems to be Takes don’t Class eight, they take two years. But he’s saying that one takes two years. Yeah.
Is he? So it’d be from class seven then, wouldn’t it? I mean, now number eight. Yeah. It would take two years.
Partition’s in parting class takes two years. Right. Okay. I didn’t two years. So then they take up the the the remaining seven chapters, Abhisamayālamkāra, the ornament.
In the in the fortune class. Right. And and that’s over two years? Over two years. Over two years.
That makes more sense. So then what you have to do is there’s there’s many commentaries which are studied. Yeah. Put some of them right at the back there somewhere. We’ve already got some of them Oh, that one.
Sorry. Yeah. Has books. Jits and Tricky Gassing. So in one of the Indian commentaries they make use of is by Indian master, Lobsang Sangpo.
Sangye. Oh. Sangye. Acharya. Haribhādra.
Lobsang Lobsang Sangye. Sangbo. L o b o. S a n g e Yeah. S a n g b o s a n g b o.
And his This is for the This is Indian commentary Yeah. To Prajñāpāramitā. Oh, right. Okay. Which is called Dreldön Sal.
The the meaning of the commentary. Come something like that. Illuminating? Illuminating. Oh, illuminating.
And his name in Sanskrit is called Dreldön Sel. Drella. How do you spell that? Drella, d r e l. W a?
Yep. Dorn, d o n, Sal, s a l. Drella and his name in Sanskrit is Haribhādra. Acharya, Acharya, a A c h a r. A r y a.
Yeah. Harry, h a r b h a r d r a, Haribhādra. When you say e har Haribhādra. H a r r? At.
Today is Friday, the tenth of May nineteen ninety one. Friday. Today is Friday. Sure. If that should include now thirteen as well since I’ve changed the numbers from class The marching class.
To The marching class doesn’t coaching is just here. But that’s class eight. Yeah. I thought Rinpoche said that from then on, that took two years. These all took one year.
And from here to here, it took two, or was it here to here? Because I’m not sure. Just getting a rough idea. To know what? Each class takes.
You want to know how long each class takes? Yeah. Just well, we’ve got it, but I just wanted to check that. I’ve got here between two and five. Mhmm.
Alright. So this is about So two. Two years. Mhmm. And then all these One year.
One year. One And all these one year. Mhmm. Okay. How does that add up?
Because somewhere we’ve got that it takes approximately twenty five years to to get the the Geshe at the Laram level. So Twenty five. After twenty five. So it might take usually anywhere from say twenty one to twenty five years. Some but there’s some special cases they could do it in as short as fourteen years.
So this this one, this what do we call zuh zuh? Zuh? You got is that minimum of one year? Mhmm. It could it could be yeah.
It could be quite long. Quite longer. Before, Rinpoche said that Karam was like a year in itself, and that’s so that’s that’s. Or was it all a so a minimum of one year, but what maximum? Three or four?
Is it is it maybe this is a one to three years. Right. Let’s see. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. That’s good. Put put put Chuck. No.
Oh, is that that same this one here? Is that who we’re referring to? That you have there. The green one. The red covered one?
The red covered one. And the one that’s Yeah. Bound. Yeah. Mostly bound.
Mhmm. Okay. I’ll have another one. I have to check this if that’s the title. The the key which the key which opens the the path the Magic.
The paths of reasoning. The key which opens the path of reasoning. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I’ll I’ll I’ll get the title from.
Thank you. It would be better to we’ll get the Tibetan, and I’ll put both down there. It is that treatise on valid cognition? Or from. That’s its source.
Sorry. Can you explain a bit more? I’m I’m that the source of what? The source of the the Dutra text. Is that topic.
Still don’t know the exact title. Just explaining the meaning of the title. So I just have to What’s well, what’s roughly was he saying what it’s all about? Or what Just what it’s about. Think that the you need a key in order to open up the treasury of the meaning of the text.
And so that doesn’t So is that the textbook? That’s And is this the actual original text that the textbook’s written about? The The Dudra is the the root source the material which is presented in the Dudra. pramāna. Is is pramāna Paramaradhika.
Alright. Paramaradhika. Mhmm. And that has its source, and that is a commentary on on kundu. Well, I don’t know if you translated that or not.
On? Kundu, the compendium of valid cognition. How do you how do you write it just in case I haven’t? How do you write Kundu, k u n? Kundu, d u.
That’s the compendium, isn’t it? Yeah. And this is a commentary, and Palma Vartika is a commentary on that. Nam Namda is a commentary to this. Uh-huh.
Kundu Namdra is by by Dharmakīrti. Namdra is? Yeah. Is it you you have it here. You have it here.
Oh, right. Alright. Okay. And? And this is a kundra.
And Namdra is is a commentary to kundra, which is by Dignāgā. Ah. And this is Dignāgā. How do you spell Dignāgā? T I n a g a.
So Dignāgā was much before Dharmakīrti, I suppose. This was his teacher. Oh, wow. And then the this comes from the the teachings of the Buddha. So Mhmm.
That’s right. So it’s that’s where Buddha comes from. Teachings are teachings that the Theravadans wouldn’t recognize, aren’t they? Right. Is that where the division comes in?
You know, mean, I was trying to piece things together. Is this No. No. No. No.
Be recognized? I don’t know it. Alright. Maybe. You know, like, Heart Sūtra isn’t recognized by.
I don’t know. Okay. I’ve just got I haven’t got any names of any texts. And then in the second one, I’ve got a lot. They’re in they’re in that Red Book.
Ah, so I’ve got a copy from Red Book. I think there are about seven. I’ve got I got quite confused with all the books that I had, and I tend to be chasing it. So that’s fine. I can do that.
About seven. Now, we’ve got Rimache said, Is that the right spelling? Remacher said, spelling? Or that was his long name. No.
I’m just Why? Good. You know, y a n g? Uh-huh. I’d have to check the spelling of this.
Something like t s I n. T s I m. T s I n? Mhmm. Uh-huh.
It’s like tutor. It means tutor. Oh, is that what it means? It’s the title. Mhmm.
Alright. Just It means like a tutor. Oh, that’s alright. That’s fine. Now I know what it means.
Very honorific for a lama or a teacher. In German, I think it’s translated as tutor. Right. That’s just the translation is the middle path. The middleing.
The middling path? The original. A original. Path. I mean, you can look at the yeah.
You can the lesser, middling, and great. Something like it’s not it’s not middle. It’s middling. I mean, just the medium. Mhmm.
Okay. Lesser, lesson, middling, and grade are given in terms of the students who are being taught that those beginning students have little wisdom. So therefore things are presented in a very simplified manner and in a very abbreviated form. Those as they progress and their intelligence increases, then they’re able to present them in a more extensive form, in a middling form. And then when they have great intelligence, then they’re able to present it in the most extensive form.
So that’s how they Oh. Did they Are they basically the same teachings, or would they are they added to, like, topics? It’s like going to school. Initially, you learn the ABCs. Mhmm.
Then as you when you pass the ABCs, then you go on to more advanced types of subjects and progress in this way. Good. So what is is a good way of representing the title in English, like, the the greater, the lesser, the middling path of reasoning and then collected topics? Is that We don’t have to keep inside. Maybe collected topics.
Don’t Well, I just put it once, though, right in the beginning. Is it where do I get collected topics from? It’s just a way of referring to all It’s a no. It comes in the name of the dudra. It basically means collected topics.
Alright. And there’s the collected topics, which is the middling path of reasoning and Right. This is the name. Yeah. So that’s simple.
And this is this is these are these classes. Mhmm. And this is the name of the text that they study in that class. The middling path of reasoning would be the name of the text, would it? So if I just cross out for that for here.
Right? Yeah. Okay. Previous explanation. I think that’s right.
What do you have? The like, I’ve got it in here. Don’t know. Yeah. So this would be the this would be extensive explanation.
Not abbreviated. Not abbreviated up here. You can say abbreviated up here. Oh, I see. This is extensive.
Mhmm. Extensive. Extensive explanation. That’s all. So that was it?
Mhmm. Great. Now with with the number Duchen Duchen temple. Questions. Questionings and the questions and abandoning Yes.
Or eliminations. I’ve got it. Abandoned. Abandoned. Oh god.
I think I think maybe resolving questions. Resolving questions. Eliminate others’ reputation and I think this should read the sources for this, but eliminating and then in parenthesis the objections of others. Right. Right.
Eliminating and then in parenthesis the objections of others, refuteachings, and proofs. Okay. Good. Mhmm. And then others.
The word reputation is in parenthesis. It’s not there, but that’s what’s that’s what’s being meant. Eliminating Yes. In parenthesis, reputation Oh. Objections.
Eliminating the objections of others? And then others is not in parenthesis. Ah. I see. The objections of is in parenthesis.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Eliminating gauges and positive engagers.
Eliminating engagers. That’s right. And then. Is that right? That’s right.
Is that a subclass? Or I wasn’t sure. No. So this is the first subject taken up in in Lotus. Mhmm.
The first subject is Subjects and objects. You’ll be new object. Yeah. Subject and object. So So you can say so awareness and knowledge, and then some of the subjects, roughly the subjects that would be taken up would be first subjects and objects.
That’s the first subject. Then after that, valid cognition. Mhmm. And after that, minds and mental factors. Minds and mental factors.
If you want to go into more detail on that, the classes of reasoning, then there’s two subjects that are taken up. Correct reasons and facsimiles of reasons. Correct reasons. Ayaanda. Correct correct reasons and facsimiles of reasons.
Jeez. Thank you. So that’s that’s all. That’s we’ve got everything for that. Class three.
So this is alright, Jampa? Yeah. That’s everything? Yeah. That’s all.
Yeah. Okay. Now I got a little confused with because I didn’t know which was ornament and which wasn’t ornament. And I just assumed that seventy topics by Jetson Bar and Sun Lum paths and grounds by Jetson Bar were part of ornament, but I wasn’t sure. And then they went on to ornament.
Is that correct? Some of the topics they’re taught. Oh. So here they so this text is like just learning the the outline of the text. Oh, that’s the overview, is it?
Yes. Outline of the text. Outline. It takes yeah. It takes up yeah.
The outlines and definitions. Definitions of terms. So, it’s right. It’s the outline of the seventy topics that are taught in the ornament. Mhmm.
Thank you. So then then is also learning and what is actually being taught in in ornament is paths and grounds, and so it it a rough definitions of the various stages and paths and grounds that are going to be taught. For this whole coming four or five years? Yeah. I see.
These are all introductions. Introductory material. Would you? So tell Wow. This is not Wow.
This is not. No. What are you asking? Is this the right spelling? So this is this would be this is Dundun Chu, c h u?
C h u. Okay. Also, one additional subject. Oh, I wasn’t sure where that came in. I was quite quite confused about that.
Here. That. That’s also by Jetson Chubikans. Oh. Tenant, what’s its Tubta.
Troub ta, t h a b v. Okay. That’s probably quite good. So there’s the three of them, and it’s also by This is Jamshin. Have you have to Jamshin?
So, I mean, you can’t just this is this is a tech. Oh. So this is like an Junction. This is like introduction, which is also written by Chuky Gaussin. Oh, I see.
So this is you shouldn’t have that too. So well, what shall I say? Introduction Introduction to Orim for Clear Originization. Mhmm. It it explains how it came to be composed.
The various explains how it is how how it was how it came to be composed, various Indian commentaries, which have been written written about. I see. So it’s like an introductory text called Jamshin. And what was the need for it? What why it what the necessity for it to be composed?
Right. So it’s just the the various commentaries. So the the the necessity for the composition of the text, what the subject of the text is about, the essential meaning set forth in the text. Have we got the name of ornament written in Tibetan somewhere? I think I think you should Close some What what what I just said would be good.
There’s a special In order to And then the structure the structure of the text? The need for composition? The the for its composition. The the structure of the The the essential necessity? The essential necessity is to be able to lead the practitioner to Buddhahood.
That’s essential necessity? Do you Yeah. That’s ultimate necessity. Ultimate. And then it’s That I need to lead The student.
Yeah. To put it in. And then the the commentaries. Listing of the various commentaries. Its relationship with the various commentaries.
And its relationship. This is Indian and Tibetan. Mhmm. Commentaries. Yeah.
To Pachin, doesn’t it? It goes all the way up to Pachin, all the studies. All of what studies? The of the ornament. All the way up to Pachin class.
Pachin class is the study of of the ornament. All of these classes were I mean, they’re all preparatory too. I mean, the topic is the ornament, isn’t it? Yeah. You know what mean?
From from here, from the fourth class through and including two, including eight. That’s all they’re studying. No. Not including. The seven.
Including the seven. Oh, I’ve changed the numbers. It’s now eight. So all they’re studying is is ornament. Mhmm.
Sounds good. That’s fine. This is called That’s actually six years because I don’t know. This is I’ll cross that through. I I that’s why I put that there.
Okay. Yeah. It’s just determined to take it out. Okay. So they do those four books.
And what’s? Where does that come in? Is that that also introduce? So these these three seventy topics, thousand grounds, and tenants. Mhmm.
Take those three and put them in. Oh. Yes. Oh. Okay.
Three plus three. Really? Oh, yeah. As well as all this stuff that we’ve already did and. So there’s this isn’t very this is to tremble tremble.
Isn’t there’s not much here. Not as much as it sounds. Isn’t that true? The the actual text of Dudra Yeah. Is very short.
Oh. But this is they they study quite a lot in that year. That’s actually It’s only a one year? Yeah. It’s one year.
So they study all of this then? This is Dhambir. This is Dhambir. This So we start here. Start.
Oh, yeah. Very good. So Jamshum is by Jetsün Bar as well, Jetsün Chockey Geltsin. Is that right? What?
So with monks that went back to come after they’ve done their first studies, would they have actually gone into this class four and covered that, or would they mostly have left after this class three? After this, turning the wheel of dharma. Oh, so they would’ve they would’ve stayed. Is in the They would’ve done junction. Junction.
Yeah. Up to up to you. So you might as well say up to the end of class four. Shinsapa is in sugar day. Yeah.
That’s right. So that I’ve had a taste of everything, really. So We start with. Then why have I got this here? That’s what I had cut out originally.
So do they then go on to the ornament itself after that this So they’re actually beginning to look at the ornament here. Right. I mean, this is is a commentary to the ornament. Yeah. Beginning to study actual text of ornament.
Mhmm. So that after after junction, they begin to study, like, the commentary clarifying the meaning. I think we mentioned that in one of the commentaries too. One of the commentaries. Okay.
Maybe we’ll just we’ll just stop this here because it’s pretty heavy stuff. These are listed in for example I have to look, but many of the books in their indexes have have a lot of information. Judy’s actually showed me a few books last night. I haven’t looked at them yet. The all night debates.
This is page I’m up to page five I’ve gone through. Then Rinpoche talked about preparation for Jyam Young, how they had the all night debates in the colleges. So I just wondered because Rinpoche had talked here about Jamyang Gunja in Tibet, could he just say a little bit about was it under his when he was abbot that they reintroduced it to a Sera Monastery in India? Just sort of compare the two. Yeah.
A younger girl sister. In nineteen eighty four, they re reestablished the tradition. Nineteen eighty four. Okay. I’ve got that we started it at Ganden.
Why have I got that? Is that correct? Tell me tell me the to determine where it should begin in the first year it was it began at Ganden. Then after that, Sera. Wonderful.
Then then. The Ganden is sat fairly close or is that I’ve forgotten. Is that for? Yeah. Saying saying that Ganden would take a bike by motor by car.
It would take about one day to get there by car. Alright. Did he send mini monks? Did he go himself? So about six o’clock in the evening.
So they’re if if they left about eight or nine evening from Sera, they would first day, they would go first to To catch the bus, they had to go to Kushalnagar. Then they’d catch the bus to Kushalnagar, and they would arrive at Hubli, which is about then they’d they’d have to get another bus to They’d they’d arrive in Hubli about six o’clock in the morning, and then they had from there there was trouble getting to Mundgod. Sometimes they’d have to wait a long time. So was only about an hour and away, but usually, would arrive at about ten o’clock, which is where Ganden is. Uh-huh.
So it took from six in the evening from about eight in the evening till ten o’clock the next morning to to get there. And how many monks went from Sera and did Rinpoche go there? Sera, so just a minute. That’s what she was saying. This year, it was more or less that they wanted to see how things would go.
So not very many monks went about maybe thirty monks from from Jay and twenty five monks from May. Oh, May also. So maybe thirty thirty monks maybe thirty monks from Sera, twenty monks from Jay, twenty monks from May, maybe maybe about thirty five monks from Drepung. And then and then since it was at Ganden, then all the monks participated. And Rinpoche didn’t go because he was the abbot of Sera Je at that time.
Just the monks from is it Shun Saba? Above Shun Saba? Or As was mentioned previous someone had looked at the classes of reasoning, had studied classes of reasoning, then they they could go. The class of reasoning is taught in the duchenne. Duchenne.
Duchenne. Duchenne. Duchenne. They kind of, yeah, bridge it up a little bit. Because that’s tatik is taken from Palmitra Vadhika from Namdao.
Oh. So That each year, more and more monks began to go. Every year they go. What what time of year do they go in India? Same as in Tibet, or do they change it?
The The season. The month. I mean, they had to ensure that they had their fieldwork done, but roughly speaking, it was at the same time that they did it had that they held it in Tibet. They held it in India. Just just before Lhasa.
Lhasa. Lhasa. Lhasa. Losar. They had field work in India planning, did they?
Mhmm. So did did the Sera Monks do well that time, or were they well prepared, or was it was it all kind of very strange to them the first time it started again? Had Rinpoche spent a lot of time? So they did well. The the the best students went.
He sent the best Buddhist. But still, all the monasteries would have sent their best students. Coincidence that this started again when Rinpoche was abbot, or was he very active in in encouraging to start? The meeting of the Abbots in Dharmasala previous at and and they Member Chee brought up the fact that introduced the the idea to reestablish reestablish this tradition. And there had been many requests to introduce this tradition in India, so they had to discuss the actual mechanics of it and how transportation and how it would operate and things like that at this meeting.
Was His Holiness involved at that time or just the for for the abbots? The it was held in Dharmasala because it is a so that they could consort with his holiness. This must be going back to India. Just I know we’re jumping a bit, but it’s still all this. The monks in in didn’t go until they were in.
Is that right? This is back in Tibet, I think. Mhmm. Ah, it’s after. After about four years at Sera, Rinpoche had his first with first this is back in Lhasa.
So when he when he got to Shunsar Nimba Nimba, that’s when he went. So that was about five years. About eight times. But getting back to Sera in India, do all the monks go from Uchin? All of them wouldn’t go from Dutun to just the better students who requested to go.
Just the better one. I see. Would in Lhasa, did did all the marks above Shunyama, did they all go or only the better students? Only the better students. Oh.
Oh. Not all. So they had to more or less be chosen. So I see. Well, I’ve got down here.
I don’t know if this is correct or not. Everybody goes above above. Is that right or not? No. It’s not right.
No. Okay. Only the only the better student. Pretty often Only the harden and the pavement. Both as they did in Tibet, only the better students could go.
That’s good. Well, I’ve got that I had that quite wrong way. Rotating it. Is that right? They still keep rotating between the three.
They rotate through the three monasteries. But in Tibet, they went to the same place. For instance, when Rinpoche was abbot and that all the monks came for Jamyong to Sara in India, how many monks did his monastery have to accommodate, or was that very difficult? You? How many this first for example, this first year Yeah.
From from the the the number from Sera and and all the monks from Ganden. Oh, I didn’t he didn’t say from the other monasteries. I think he only said how many from Sera we And he said, Drepung, there was thirty. Oh, didn’t he? Sorry.
I missed that bit. He said Sera, thirty. Sera Je, thirty. And twenty from Sera May. Twenty.
Okay. J, thirty. May, twenty. Mhmm. Drepung, about thirty.
Oh, okay. And then since it was at Ganden, all the monks would be participating. Yeah. But I’m just really asking about they had to accommodate about a hundred extra months or something when they had it at Sera. Was it a problem?
Sera. Sera, you do? So you want to know what when they had this, how many monks came? No. I wanted to know whether it was well, well, roughly, I’m it’s about a hundred because is that correct? Come outside?
Yeah. But just was it a monasteries to house the extra monks with food and shelter? Do, sir. So the when it was when it was held at Sera, then Sera Je. So when it was held at Sera, then the Sera Je would make preparations for for the monks from from Zhangze and Gomang.
And Sera May would preparations from Shardzey and Loseling. And then at the first year they held it, you know, these various numbers that he gave you, they counted the number of monks, but after that, they didn’t keep counting the number of So Gomang, is that g o m a n? Gomang? G o m a n g. Okay.
Gomang. Okay. And Loseling, l o s e l I n g? Losel. Okay.
Losel. L a n g. And what were the other ones you said? Chumsik. Sze.
Which one say? Is that a Drepung college? Ganden. Oh, Ganden. And Scharzet, s h a r.
S h a r. That’s it. Easy. Yeah. That’s gone and all sorts?
Or was it Sera May took those, was it? That’s right. May took these Mhmm. And took and and Jay took care of and. Mhmm.
And. Se. Oh, that’s good. The same sort of reciprocal thing they would have done in Tibet too, the different tarsalms. Okay?
In Tibet? India. Oh, no. It’s not. So that’s a new thing.
Of course, it’s not. No. That’s a that’s a whole new a new sort of link up that they worked out. Right. So when they go back, then the same colleges would reciprocate, like when they go to Drepung.
That’d be really good. Sorry. Drepung. Yeah. That’s they were making preparations.
Oh, that’s good. So and and there were there were always two teachers who would come from each of the college attendant. These these teachers would be they’re they’re they’re would receive their transportation and meals. There was always a patron who would would they would be sponsored. These these two teachers from each other colleges.
Do the monks have to pay their own way? They they lost their chopper. So so so so so. They have to pay for themselves, so they have to save up. Mhmm.
There were many many offerings at the actual session of the debate. They would receive many offerings From what? From various patrons. Ah. Would come and make offerings.
So they get quite a bit of a back then. Mhmm. And did they go on with the same all night debates that they’d done in Tibet? If there wasn’t any if there weren’t any patrons to to pay for the transportation of these two teachers from each of the colleges, the monasteries themselves would take the responsibility to pay their ways. It went the same way that it did in Tibet as in India.
And does Rinpoche Yeah. Thinks at the same level. Oh, that’s good. That’s really continued. And Ganden, if anybody who wanted to go was allowed to go, probably wasn’t was the case, but that wasn’t the case with Sera Monastery.
Oh, what the Abbott had to Kim had to. So the it’s Sera Je, they they would transport all the Sera Je would transport all the the food stuffs for the monks, the tea, tsampa, and whereas so the the other monasteries, they they didn’t transport each of the monks had to transport their own would provide food for their monks. Oh, but not that’s not not the case with the and. So he’s not so sure about the other monks, the other colleges, but like Gomang, they probably ate together, Jangtse probably ate together. But he knows that mostly they eat separately.
I have to look it up. It’s basically college, isn’t it? We’re just using the term as a college. Yeah. That’s right.
To eat at what I’ve done before before I talk more about that. So maybe this is a good place to break. But I was going to you said before that it would be a good idea to to perhaps ask Roger to ask about writing an introduction to the book. Should I ask Rinpoche if he thinks that’s a good idea? Or The the the