Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Short of food and near despair at Sera Monastery, Khensur Rinpoche prays to the twenty-one Taras during an afternoon session — and receives his uncle’s message that same evening. This episode of swift blessing anchors the 92-minute biographical dictation, in which Rinpoche narrates his early years at Sera to a scribe. Other topics include the Geshe examination system and how divination shapes one’s degree level; cycles of wealth and poverty at Sera, including treating students to momos or tupa whenever they memorized a full text; and a detailed account of the annual great winter debate — over a thousand monks traveling west of Lhasa by leather raft, debating from dawn to midnight in three daily sessions, and so demanding that one monk said it could drive people crazy. Assumes familiarity with Tibetan monastic life.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 47 RS 1991 04 29.mp3
UUID: 7bf4099d-b8aa-4446-89ae-2dcf70e44de8
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1991-04-29
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 91.6 minutes
Words: ~7,556
This is the other other one actually gives the one the title of Geshe, no matter what type of Geshe it might be. And the Lingse All of the of the Geshe’s, they have to sit within a debate session of the the district house and the college. And it is the abbot who designates what level of Geshe they will be awarded. But sometimes even someone who’s good in philosophy will not take the higher Geshe examination because they quite often they choose not to or they many of them have a divination made and the divination according to that will determine what level of Geshe they will examination they will sit for. Usually the divination is made to for example higher Griva.
They will have either one’s one’s individual lama or or someone else who’s good in divination, throw in divination what would be best for them to sit and what level of Geshe they should sit at. The geshe Lharampa, the the the Lharampa geshe sit at the for the geshe exam during the Monlam festival. The Laram does as well as this one? No. This is this is after after this is the Monlam festival.
This is during the Monlam festival. So the Tsograpa Geshe sits during the Monlam festival. That’s part of the festival itself. The Penam Lingse Geshe, One can request at one level which level one wants to sit the degree at, but then it’s up to the abbot in the ultimate hand. He may say someone may want to sit as a Lharampa Geshe examination but the doesn’t think he is suitable.
The abbot ultimately determines at what level you will sit your Geshe examination at. But there might be very good scholars even at Lingse Geshe might be a good scholar. It’s possible because it’s a combination of divination, one’s own wish, and avid. So I think it’s not so good to say that they’re of a poor quality. Yeah.
I’m only writing down what was said. Yeah. That’s why I wanted to check, so that’s good. Alright. What we were talking last time with with I think it’s Tusung.
It was the Lobsang Melon’s father’s partner, and it was we were talking about when he came to Lhasa with all the the dzo and everything. And I’ve I’ve got my time sequence really confused. Lobsang Melon stayed for three years, and he bought a a chest of tea when he came for Rinpoche. But I didn’t know whether Tüsong came oh, not Rinpoche, Tusung, that it came to take Lobsang Melon back or he came halfway through Lobsang Melon’s stay and just they got all the benefit of all his goodies that he brought for the Chinese. It was just for the sequence of the But he thought he came after two years.
Didn’t I say? It may be that. I just wanted to double check if it was after two years. I think it probably was. Three.
Three years after came, then came three years later. Wow. And then and then maybe two and a half years. So did Lobsang Melon stay three years or four years? I’m just getting the time since Lobsang Melon, Sarah Lugata Shibare.
Four years. Oh, right. Because somewhere I had three, and in my head it didn’t add up then. But if he stayed about four, so that would have been roughly a year before Lobsang. Yeah.
That’s right. That’s great. Mullen’s return in any way, that that particular Just sounds coming. Yeah. The of the two, there was no relationship between them.
Yeah. That’s good. That’s all really I wanted to establish so I could get it straight because I got very confused. Yeah. Lobsang Melon was ready to return, and then I’ve got here Rinpoche bought a horse and a tree.
Is that is that correct? And some cloth and a lot of number. What about? There lots of. There are also many different things.
Right. Ray pen numb number? Wool cloth? Wool cloth. Yeah.
It’s almost felt, isn’t it? Soft felt. Number. Number. So that would have come from India.
Tibetan. Not calm. Calm. Calm number is handmade. Lhasa.
Made in Lhasa. Lhasa. So they don’t make him come. Come it’ll read the numbers. So the numbers are the.
They can’t make this this kind of No. Just two boxes. Number of circuit. Make this by hand. In Lhasa.
Something about I purchased two boxes and put them on the. They’re just boxes to load, I suppose, to load all the goods. And the the Just big boxes. Just to carrying boxes. Different articles.
Big wooden boxes. Trunks. Trunks. Yeah. Neutral trunks.
And and this is this the cloth is that is this cloth called numbered or meaning numbered. Trucks and trunks. Trucks. T r u g, maybe. But but it’s just number is a poor quality.
Troek is a better quality of wool cloth. It’s just different qualities of cloth. And that’s poor. Yeah. Okay.
The. Helped carry the the articles, and and he was the horse. So they wouldn’t use horses for pack animals so much. It was just mainly for riding. She’s on she’s tied.
Yeah. Just for for riding. They wouldn’t they wouldn’t load them. In general, they wouldn’t load baggage on horses. Did Lobsang Melon go with a party of group of people?
Lobsang Melon. That’s right. So just another group of traders or something like that. Yeah. Thumbotto. Mhmm.
Mhmm. Traders. So, Rinpoche talks about it as if it’s just so easy to get to come, whereas other people in their books, they write about how hardships it takes and majors. The one by oneself, one has to go in a group here, but it was difficult. Up at a at a village about every every day on the trip.
Oh, so it’s a village. Yeah. Yeah. They could they could they would start get re arrive at the village every day of the journey. So they’d sort of get there And they could buy stuff.
And stuff. Mhmm. Yeah. Mhmm. Do they have to have their own tents and sort of sleeping gear, or did they always sleep in the villages?
Two routes they could take. One was southern route. One was a northern route. In southern route, there was lots of villages. In the northern route, there weren’t very many villages.
That northern one was a dangerous one, wasn’t it? The Mhmm. The northern route. Length of time to take either the two routes was about the same. But there was probably better grass on the northern route for the animals, and so some preferred to try to take that route.
That was was one of the main reasons that the the preference. But it seems like Rinpoche’s family always traveled by the southern route because every time he’s made a journey, he said the southern route. Would that be correct? But they just they always use that one. After that, there was lots of money.
I don’t know whether that the lots of money was when Lobsang Melon was there or after just after Lobsang Melon left, but Rinpoche had lots of money and was able to feed his students on Momos and Druppa. We’ve sort of talked about this before, but it comes up here again. When whenever his one of his students would completely memorize one of the texts, for example, that it was a text seventy topics or rounds and paths or or the ornament, then he would treat them to momos. That would take a very long time now, wouldn’t it, to memorize something like that? Okay.
Loads in fifteen or twenty pages. Oh. Oh. It’s taking that much longer. I might memorize him from about seven in the night to five in the morning.
If they did that, Rinpoche would treat them to tupa. a stew / thick soup. Bit different, though, isn’t it? It’s all the little bits of broken. Isn’t isn’t tupa a sort of noodles, the handmade noodles in it?
Oh, different types of. Varieties of. Some they they cut the noodles up. Some of them they roll little balls. Some Yeah.
Some yeah. So there’s many varieties. But they it will all have some sort of noodle, isn’t it? Isn’t tupa noodles? Tupa means noodles.
Yeah. Put delicious food. Yeah. Students would cook the. Just good heavy food for night studying.
Studying. But in our way of thinking, can you explain why it’s good why it’s good heavy food for night studying? They might stay up all night memorizing, and and that’s good for them to have that Tupa. Is that right? Yeah.
Right. And that that having stayed up all night Yeah. Now we know that a as a as a reward Right. They would be given Tupa. Right.
That’s alright. That’s what’s I’m glad we got that straight. Teachers. Think that’s That’s right. Yeah.
Is that is that two years after Lobsang Melon left or or during? It’s got for two years, I was wealthy. I gave momos and noodles to all my students. Then after two years, I was poor again. Is that after This after he left.
After he left for two years, he was rich and then became poor again. So we just got impermanence. That’s that’s quite sweet. Is that impermanence? Is that it?
No. Can you can you print it? I have trouble reading your writing. For two years, many people would come around and drink tea and talk and eat. So he was very popular for two years.
And then he was poor again. Then he reverted reverted back to when he was poor. Talked lot. Ate a lot. Kinda hang out hang out with other people.
And so when he didn’t have money, there wasn’t much talking, and he studied well. Well well, made this you know, I love doing Yabba now. So They didn’t not many people came around where you didn’t have any money. I know the feeling very well. Well, how can we do it?
Family. Another brother. Mother. His brother. I remember, which I was very hungry and somewhat despondent.
He didn’t have enough food. Things were difficult. So he he was thinking to go to a a nearby monastery called Roto Gompa. Roto Gompa. And there that he he could get he would be able to have get food.
So one evening To go and live there instead of Sera. Yeah. Yeah. To move to Roto Gompa. And so one evening at debate he made prayers to, while they were making prayers to the twenty one Taras, reciting the prayer to the twenty one Taras, he made requests for help.
And the next day he received a message from his mother’s sister’s husband, his uncle. And he was very happy to receive that. Said, Please meet us. We are now in Lhasa. Right.
So wasn’t anything to do with debate. It was at a prayer afternoon prayer session or evening? These prayers to Tārā during the session, which was between three and five in the afternoon. Alright. And then he went back to his room, about six or seven o’clock, he received this message.
Really? So not not the next day, the the same evening? The name of Chippa. The land land chores. Same evening.
What? Between six and seven? That’s a quick quick quick blessing. It certainly was. Amazing, Swift.
And can accomplish the very quickly. Struggle. Share a little What’s this rotu gompa and would they support monks better there or would he have had more of a teaching load? Roto gompa. Is that it’s more like small monasteries around Lhasa.
And this is a general name that they give these. I have to look. Maybe you just write that word down. Okay. Okay.
Mhmm. Right. The area, and they would have a temple and a few monks in those. And if you would go join these monasteries, then would be given your food. Oh, wow.
So he was thinking about moving to one of these monasteries. Alright. Could he could he continue his studies if he did? He have to have given up his studies. He just meditate.
You would have to give up your study. So, it was a pretty big decision. Pretty desperate decision. They would just recite their daily recitations and meditate. Sister’s husband, is it, contacted?
Rinchen Tashi. Tashi. Rinchin Tashi. Rinchin Tashi’s son owns a restaurant in Dharmasala in Macao. Oh, right.
Yeah. I mentioned him before. Yeah. So that’s Is that one of the students that came, the son, that owns the restaurant? When?
No. That’s his uncle. That’s his uncle. That’s or marriage? That’s who he’s talking right here.
His father’s his his mother’s sister’s husband. Yeah. That’s his uncle on his mother’s side. Yeah. That’s that’s Renjin Tashi.
Yeah. Yeah. So Rinchen Tashi had two children. One was Champatashi. Uh-huh.
And one was Champa Ngadag. Yeah. What’s that? And Champa Nygaya, n g a n y a. So he said these were these were his two.
And Champa Tenzin owns a That’s that’s Rinpoche’s first cousin. One in Tibet. Nagya’s in Tibet. Oh, right. Right.
Two sons of. Okay. That’s right. We’re called cousins. I don’t know what Tibetans call.
I haven’t really got into Tibetan, Kim. We don’t know how much. Puntroek. Puntroek. I don’t think that.
Puntroek. That’s his first. So just to they they just use a general word for a close relative as Punge. Oh, as which? Punge.
P u n? Brother. Brother. It’s like a mother. Yeah.
Oh, it is. It’s mother, sister’s, child is brother. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s that’s a very general name.
So what was the G y g y a, I think. I don’t know. I have to look it up, the actual about Rinpoche’s own age then, those two brothers, and because they wanted both of them to become monks and keep them at Sierra. So they must have been a bit younger, perhaps. They was probably ten years old.
Oh. And was probably seven. And then so said he wanted to go off trading. Oh. And he asked Rinpoche to take care of his two sons.
Oh. And that he would supply all the food and clothing to them and take them as students. But they already were sort of monks at Dage, apparently. Is that right? Right.
Their home. Was it Shitsi? Home was it Shitsi? Shitsi. I’ve forgotten.
That’s not too far away. It’s very close. Just ten minutes, ma’am. So if I’m into right horse for ten minutes. Very good.
In his rooms. Mhmm. Tārā provided Rinpoche with plenty of money. His family had sent him one thousand daim, which I don’t know if you have that somewhere. Is it a Chinese measure of I was going to ask how to spell it before.
Okay. Well, then he said but he wouldn’t give it to him all at once. His family the family had given instructions to Rinjin Tashi. Said, If you give it to him all at once, he’ll just give it all away. This is Rinpoche.
Is Toshikin himself. Yeah, yeah. So Rinjin Tashi wouldn’t give him all at once. He was just going to give it to him slowly just to take care of his needs. So that was his instructions from his family.
Yeah. It’s a it’s a Chinese. Is that the one with the the square hole in the center, that one? No. No.
No. It’s not. Silver coins. Mhmm. A thousand of them.
One load. What is one one load that Yeah. That the What? The one side Yeah. Of a load.
They they could carry one thousand. It was silver. So they sent in one thousand pieces of silver. So it was tremendously heavy. It was it was silver.
It was very heavy. So a thousand would take up One side of a load. The Diane ingots of silver. Diane Diane be in a trunk. It’d be was very heavy.
So it’d be in one trunk load full of silver. One one thousand pieces of silver. Quite big, like a fifty cent coin, is it? Fifty cent. Mhmm.
And a solid silver thing? Rich again. Very rich, Did you push on it? Before we talked all about the Tibetan money, remember the dossier? And why did this family use the Chinese currency?
In in Kham, they only had Chinese money. They didn’t have Tibetan money. Oh. So when Rinpoche is talking about the doce, he’s kind of converted it into Tibetan from the Chinese, You know before The doze? Yeah.
That was lassa money. Yeah. The only lassa they would use this way of this money. They wouldn’t use this money in in Kham. Oh.
In Song, all over Song? They had to pay taxes to the Chinese government. They didn’t pay taxes to the Tibetan government. They didn’t didn’t didn’t give they didn’t need Tibetan money because they had to pay their taxes to the Chinese government. Is that the same in Amdo as well?
There was a the City, you mean? Chamdo. Below Mhmm. South of below that it was under under under Chinese control, and they had all those in that entire area, they paid taxes to the Chinese government. And above that river, then they paid taxes to Tibetan government.
Above Aretewon north and south? Or Above the Khlochoktang. Khlochoktang. I’ll probably do if I look at a map, but I’m very ignorant without them. I’ll get a map next time.
I’ll bring a map tomorrow to China. So this one side was considered China, one side was considered Tibet. And so they were Let’s see. The two smaller ones. Well, he left with someone in Lhasa?
Yeah. Mentioned Taji kept he took care of the money himself. Oh, so he just it would come back to Lhasa from time to time with his trading. Oh. Yeah.
Time to time, he would give him more more of it. And then I think then Rinpoche says that that that was Jampa Tensen went to India with his father in either nineteen fifty four or nineteen fifty eight on business and stayed there. And the other the other relative escaped with Rinpoche in nineteen fifty nine. So with his father? His father to India?
I didn’t retry. No. It’s You know, get champagne nugget. Nine of fifty four. Fifty eight.
Fifty eight. Champ Champin Nugget is now in Nepal. Lives in Nepal. He presently lives in Nepal. Right.
So which one went with his father? Cham Chambon Naga. He Chambon Naga did. The Tambodu. Yeah.
Yeah. Went with his father. Probably died in India in nineteen seventy one. Oh, right. Died in India in nineteen seventy one.
Okay. Did did he then have some idea that things were going wrong in Karm? Is that why he brought the children, or was it just for religious The Three children. Wong Chug. karma, k a r m a w a n g Mhmm.
C h e g. karma Chew was just a small child at this time. He he didn’t become a monk. He he did stay in Las Vegas. Karmawanchu went went with him to India.
In nineteen fifty eight? Yeah. Which was the eldest one? Champa Tenzin or Chambra Tenzin? Champa Tenzin.
It was the eldest. Mhmm. And Jampatansen stayed with Rinpoche at Sera Monastery? He was older. He was older.
Okay. When Rinpoche escaped, then Jampatansen was with him. So, yeah, when when Rinpoche escaped, he came with him. Really? Jampa Tenzin?
Yeah. Think we were gonna ask something, but I forgot it now. I did. I did. Well, kind of just getting at the motivation.
Oh, why they why they came to Yeah. Well, kind of the so he he thought things were becoming bad and things were in in calm. So he decided to bring all his possessions and just his children to Lhasa. So what what kind of drove him to that decision? Did he bring his wife as well?
His wife had already died by this time. Oh. Oh. So there was a lot of problems in Kang? Talked quite a bit about what the Chinese were starting to do.
They were starting to take people’s possessions and kill some of the leaders who were objecting, standing up to them, and just generally taking over the situation. But he thinks he’s talked about some of the things. I haven’t talked about them in that period because he wasn’t there. Yeah. Idea of which class Rinpoche was in when all these things happened.
Like, could he just say again what class he was in when Rolsam Moland came and then what class he was in when Tārā answered his prayers and the other relatives came? Came. He was in the beginning Mika or Middle Way. Man, was humongrate. Aw.
Look at his face. Yeah. Okay. Then when Rin Shintashi. Umasabha, is it?
Yeah. Mhmm. When when Shintashi came, when Shintashi lived there? I don’t remember. Is it?
Number twelve. Oh, it’s right up the nearly the end. Mhmm. After the parameter class, we have some time just memorizing. The southward when it dipped in Rinjin Tashi Kant, he was in advanced.
And then they might they might set roughly, you could say that they had in in in a year, they had about seven months of debate and five months of no debate. Right. Roughly. And this would mean that approximately, from about the fifteenth of the month to the thirtieth, they would have a a no debate. But also during the month of the seventh month and the eleventh month.
They would have a no debate for those two months. But what would that what would that be for? Mhmm. So the seventh and eleventh month was something like a holiday, but they weren’t just allowed to go anywhere. They they still had teachings, but it was considered something of a holiday.
Mhmm. And the rest depends on the driver person. They would mainly use this as a time for to review and to memorize what they had already learned. Right. Well, that’s somehow what I’ve got here.
I think, actually, we’re starting off to talk about this. District house. Oh. Is were there were twelve district houses. Yeah.
So they just went to stay at district house. Oh, just for variety. Just for change. Do you they look? At Takpo?
Uh-huh. There’ll be a few people there. Is that is that a cave in the mountain? Where does this come from? It’s in Sera Monastery.
It’s not a cave in the mountain, so I just cross this out. So it’s still in Sera. Mhmm. Is that a very small district house? Is that It’s a constituents list.
constituents. Small district house. How many people in it? Yeah. One hundred months.
Uh-huh. I find all of this is a bit confused. Right. So if I put in From time to time. Sometimes at the they would stay at other district houses or and sometimes at the time, they would stay in caves.
Oh, good. Well, that’s cleared that one. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes in caves.
They would ask to borrow an empty house and they would stay there. Always in Sera Je. Does Sera May have the same break times as Sera Je? Sera May. The same same debate. Time of debate and time of break would be the same.
And at at Tantric College or not? I have a lot of debate. When he first talked about he was in the part he he he talked about an association with the part being in the parting class, they generally they did this in general. In general. So I just will just Yeah.
That’s fine. I’ll just leave that. The break period from the Shum Ningpa, the beginner’s treatise, advanced treatises. Break. Time.
Time. Begins at the number five. Yeah. Cross five. So also number four also.
Beginning treatises. Beginning Shumasapa. Mhmm. Shumasapa. Start start at the beginning of Shumasapa.
Yeah. Then they start having break periods. After that point, they don’t have the they don’t have break periods. At that time, they one or two. One or two.
Yeah. He went with Nawa, Geshe Nawa, doggy many times. Is that the time when I was frightened of the snakes and everything? That comes with the draw. This is when he was he mentioned to you Yeah.
About the mountain lion. Oh, the mountain of course. Yeah. Mountain lion. Yeah.
Yeah. There you go. So that was one the one time he especially remembers, but he would have must have gone lots of other times. With this is the time. General.
Yeah. Many times. But that was the one particular time. The cup mix had it. Mhmm.
What class was he in that time? The cups there’s in the kare. From today. Sukho Sukho Saba. Sukho Sukho Sukho Saba.
Saba. Sukho Did you go did you go there? No. No. I didn’t.
Ruby went there. She was saying she’s been there, but I didn’t actually. We just probably saw it. It’s not far. It’s not Probably saw them because yeah.
So that is actually another monastery though, isn’t it, Pabongka? Another little monastery, is it? Monastery in here. Yeah. There’s one of the Pabongka area monasteries.
It’s very close to that. Right. Right. Yeah. So what was it?
A lion? Lion? Mountain lion. Mountain lion. Oh, you can call it whatever you want.
It’s called Not a it’s not a snow lion, though, is it? No. It’s called I mean, in Tibetan, maybe but zig zig, and then you can check. Zig? Zig.
Zig. How do you spell it? Zig. But just for now, put z I g. And then you can check what what that Zig zig Zig.
Spots. It’s like a A leopard. Maybe a leopard. I don’t know what they well, you you’d have to find out what they call that type of animal in that particular area. I mean, it could be a But definitely got spots.
Yeah. Spots. Spots. It Yeah. Yeah, They would take candles.
Candles weren’t weren’t very plentiful, though, but they would take candles. They weren’t plentiful. Were they candles like we have them? Were they just oil in a wick, like a butter lamp? Just like our candles.
They’re made in NASA? Yeah. Yeah. They’re tallow. Made from animal fat?
Mhmm. Mhmm. The real old candles. Mhmm. Tapers.
Tell them. Mhmm. What was Rinpoche memorizing at that time? What text would have you been memorizing? At at this particular time.
Like singing bowl. Trumne. Trumne. Have to do all this, don’t I? I try it.
Try it. T r a n g Yeah. N g e. Yeah. Trumne.
And that’s definitive and interpretive. The text is a special text. Right. I’ve probably got yeah. We’ll have to go through.
Absolutely. It’s called. Do you wanna print it, or shall I? It beeps. Okay.
So sometimes soon we’ll do. We’ll have to do that. I remember. What it would I mean, memorizing is memorized. They made nettle soup.
How do you make nettle soup? Just pour it in water. Cut up the noodles, put them in boiling water, and add some butter. That’s it. They didn’t have any meat.
Was very delicious. Delicious. Very nutritious. Would be. Be excellent.
Very cleansing. Some would eat it if it was fresh, and they they would just cut it up eat it, the the nettles. But if it was dried, then they would they would grind it up and make a soup out of You mean they’d eat it raw if it was fresh, is the same? Like a salad? Super.
Would eat it raw and some would grind it up and make a soup out of it. So it’s only the old nettles that sting. They all sting. No. They don’t sting.
Our nettles sting, aren’t they? The edges of them. Australia. In England? Just the outside of the leaves.
Correct. Papa. Papa. So they had they had thorns, stickly, sticky. But once it was cooked and there was no problem.
But if you touched it with your hand. It would stick. Yeah. That stickers. You had to be very careful how you prepared them so you didn’t touch them.
Just cut them up with a knife and very, very careful to put it in the in the soup or whatever. But then then there was no problem. Good. Oh, well, that’s Today is Thursday, the second of May nineteen ninety one, and I’m continuing with Rupeshay. You wanna just Today is Thursday, May second.
Winter. Yeah. At one time in our studies. Once a year. So once a year.
I’ve forgotten which one. Starts at is it Duchen or Shum Shumsapa where it begins? The ones that don’t go Do not go are This is according to Sera Monastery. Yeah. Would be the the the dudra classes do not go.
Shumsarpa does not go. Right. And the the uma. So so what about this one? Duchen, does that go?
I just Oh, sorry. That they’re the that’s Duchen as well. Sorry. These are all Duchen. Oh, oh, I want you.
So, three. Duchen does not go. Shinsarpa does not go. Right. Those four.
Does not go. Oh. Does not go. And does not go. The the All the rest go.
No. So the rest So doesn’t go. Doesn’t go. So the rest of them would go. Right.
And it’s every year? Every year in winter. So this yeah. So just to to be Mhmm. Tantric, would it be?
They go? Mhmm. Those who are studying philosophy would go. So even the tantric. Okay.
What they are studying during this period. So what they’re on particular subjects of pramāna, and the means, well, you can look it up, valid cognition. And the basic text that is made use of are two basic texts. One is, it’s called Kungdu by Denaga, Namdra, Sama Namdra, Paramhana Varnika by Dharmakīrti. And then those are the basic.
And then on top, they have texts Khedrup Je, Gauss of Jay, Gan Ganindupa, then then the individual college textbooks. Right. Now how much detail does Rinpoche want in in in this? Shall we put should we just list all those texts in English and Tibetan? Then would be Yeah.
I maybe in in in a footnote, in a footnote or something. Or just a table. Mhmm. That’s right. Appendix anything.
Amakerti. That’s not correct spelling. Isn’t that Heidi? Yeah. Yeah.
Chari. I think it’s y a. A r y a? I think so. Okay.
And the code and so on. So that’s okay for now, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Add later.
Home details. About in the Tibetan month. The eleventh Tibetan month, about the third day. Third day. Eleventh Tibetan month.
It goes until the twelfth Tibetan month, about the fifteenth day Fifteenth day. Approximately. Twelve. So, actually, New Year’s at winter too then. Those are cups of the year.
Spring. So until the fifteenth of the month, it would go, then there’d be still about fifteen more days until Lhosa. Yeah. So they’d have just come back in time to make all the preparations for So would it be right to say that this was a very happy, exciting time of you and that the monks look forward to going to this and then knowing that they come back to Yes. Yes.
So it was a it was a time of great going on of debate. Was a very long period of debate, and all the experts, all the masters would come for debate, and so it was a very those who were into their studies had a very enjoyable time during this period because it was a very long period of profound debate. So it was a very exciting time for them. They had very lengthy and profound debates in the evening that people would be presenting their doubts. They would begin with the lesser of qualms that they had toward the beginning of the text of Prama Nabarthika.
But then as evening progressed, the more experts would begin to express their qualms and the debate would be really in-depth and very vast debate. So when you say qualms, mean doubts about the text or what it was meant? So it in terms of trying to understand the difficult meanings of the text and trying to fathom what was actually meant. That they would, we would say qualms or doubts, things like In this period, they had three debate sessions, one in the morning, one in the afternoon, and one in the evening. The evening debate would be a gathering of all the monks, and it would begin maybe around seven o’clock.
This was an extremely great debate because all the monks were gathered together. The experts would be sort of grouped in the center part of the debate, then the lesser students would be outside. It a tremendous debate with all of these monks debating the same subject. So how how it must be an enormous number of monks involved. The the proper.
Over one thousand. The the the best masters of philosophy from each of the monasteries would also be involved in the debate. But you said that the Laram class had become, so it would be the Geshees that had already been to their degrees. Haramkahs didn’t come, but there were many, many Geshe’s and all the experts because during this period they would also receive teachings, and the Geshe’s and the experts would be giving teachings during this time, so they would also come to the debate sessions. So, it’s very sort of mentally stimulating, period.
Must have been so fruitful. They would roster monks from each of the colleges. And during these debates, they would two monks for one to have to sit from each of the of each of the colleges. Had two monks from Sera Je, two monks from Sera May, Ganden, and and. They would just go like that.
And so All all the or all the colleges are Colleges. Colleges. Colleges. So these were always the best of their colleges who would be sitting, so it was always the highest level debate. And they would morning debate, they would have two monks from Jay, and afternoon to Monk May, and just like that.
So that would always be the two from the same college debating? Sitting, answering questions. Yeah. Yeah. That’s been quite a bit of a sort of friendly rivalry too, I guess, It was a time for debate or argumentation.
So is he agreeing with what I said? Yes. One and a half days on foot, that can’t be right, can it? Sorry, from Sera, by foot, those who could walk fast could arrive if they left early, they could arrive that same day. But those who didn’t walk so fast, it would take them two days.
They would stay at Oh. To break the journey. No. So there was a there were many villages that they passed through along the way, and one that they usually those who took two days would stay at a place called Netong, a village Netong. So it’s quite a way out Lhasa then.
The the kilo kilometer. The kilometer. I’m just trying to place what direction it would be. Cover. West from Lhasa?
West from Lhasa? Yeah. Lhasa Neutrokte. There’s a river that flows through Lhasa. It would follow the river west.
They would be carrying all their supplies with them and some and part of the journey, they would take a a raft, leather raft. Oh! You know, boats. And there’s a road in one of those, coracle or something they call them. If you didn’t go in the raft, you you couldn’t arrive in one day.
Oh, they’d actually travel quite a way down the route and not just across it. They wouldn’t travel in the boat at night. Wouldn’t be safe, It’s too Yeah. It was did the stream push them along? Did I just use that one of those big sort of stick things, or did this the stream just put push them along in those boats?
Too Fascinating. So the inside inside was wood the boat was wood and the outside of it was leather wrapped around the wood. Oh, the inside was wood. Then the the Just a frame. So they would it went it was downstream up to the, the place of the bait.
And then coming back, they would just walk. They wouldn’t take the boat. Ah. So they really only used those boats to go downstream, did they? Chetan, Chetan.
The injection of the flow of water. Have to carry the boots up. Oh. They carried it back? They did, just in general.
Oh, someone. Yeah. Just in general. Oh, cool. In one boat?
So if they had all their supplies with them, they could carry about twenty monks in a They’re quite big, weren’t they? Two. I wanted to ride in one in in Larson, but I didn’t. Some other people went off and did Can the Larson? On Pepto.
Yeah. To the place. If they’re either on the river or walking beside the river, they were traveling west or The river to that place. So they had to carry their sampa and clothes and sleeping cushions. I mean, he must have gone many times, so it was probably his custom to use all together maybe eight times to this debate session, and he took the boat maybe twice.
Oh, only twice. Rest of the time you walked. Six times just walking altogether. Was it expensive to take a boat? Forty or fifty.
I hate it. Just remember that. Forty or fifty? No song song. New old song.
Like, no silver, I think. I don’t know. It’s on the other piece of paper. Oh, sorry. No.
Forty or fifty. I just remember one. So this place was actually past Drepung, so the Drepung monks wouldn’t have so far to go. So it was on the way. Sera.
Sera’s the furthest then Drepung. Then Drepung. Then this is the place. Oh, Ganden’s much further, yeah, yeah, of course. Ganden’s miles.
Ganden was very far. So now days the Chinese use that place for people with leprosy, is that right? Leprosy. It’s about people with leprosy. Okay. And just because it came up here, I wondered if Rinpoche could talk a little bit about his memories.
Was did he see many people in his time in Tibet with leprosy, either in Lhasa or in Kham? Can can see Yeah. Example Many in Lhasa. Not not so Yeah. Many.
Did did they live in the town, or or did they were they isolated? Yes. So the the the lepers and the and the general the general beggars would come into the city and well, not come in. They they would both be in the city along the the robes begging. The people?
Yeah. I don’t know. Yeah. And then the the lepers would live outside the city, and the beggars would live within the city. So that more or less they’d have to quit the city at night?
The the the the the the place where they lived. They had their own kind of, we call them leper colony stuff. They all lived in the same area. So they didn’t have a special particularly a special place, but just where they would live where people generally didn’t go. Right.
So keep away. Did any of the monks ever have leprosy that Rinpoche can remember? And if they did, what would happen? Rinpoche didn’t see any monks himself who had leprosy, but he had heard, and previously there had been monks who had leprosy and that some of them were quite the more advanced ones would make this part of their practice, their leprosy, taking on the leprosy of other people. More advanced practitioners or lepers?
The more There’s a tradition of taking them on the leprosy of others. Were they allowed to stay in the monastery? They weren’t allowed to stay in the monastery. So I don’t have to go to a cave or just be yeah. Fifty nine, Rinpoche sat two people who sit in debate, who sit to answer questions, he sat in nineteen fifty nine answering questions.
Oh, nineteen fifty nine? Mhmm. Just before the invasion. Okay. Pardoner was Cinzet Cinzet Cinzet Cinzet.
Chunzit. Okay. I can’t just quickly spot it there. Chunzit. Chunzit.
That’s in the nineteen fifty nine debate. Yeah. No lot. C h o? Nineteen fifty nine, fifty eight.
I don’t know about these spellings. No. This is good stuff. T zed o. T zed.
T zed. Nilo. T z. What’s a n g o? N g do you organize the debates?
I mean, if there’s a thousand monks, how how how did they decide? Did each college be responsible for their own monks, or was there a a a sort of a structure that came together to organize the whole of the monks? The place is the same place as the Ratu Gompa. Oh, right. And because of the So the the the abbot and the and the the gaygu Oh.
Of that monastery, they would they would take care of all the preparations and and the running of the of the sessions of of the entire of the entire event. Right. So they must have had a lot of accommodation just for thousands of They had the normal accommodations for their own monks, but during this period, each of the monasteries would take responsibility for erecting temporary shelters for their own monks. Oh, a group of tents? They had wooden structures that were built by each of the monasteries to accommodate their monks.
Aside from this debate period, they’d be empty. Ah, right. Right. It must be very cold at that time if it was the middle of winter. The intercollege debates during this period and the Jay Monks would go debate with the May Monks and would go debate with all the colleges that would have inter college debates during this period, and they would keep exchanging different debate sessions with each other.
So would more than one college debate at the same time? Describing just the course of the general day. Cool. So, I mean, they would get up maybe five o’clock in the morning, and they would have tea, and then wash, have tea, read their texts, maybe have a teaching. And then they would have a general debate with all the monks would come together from maybe seven to about ten o’clock, and then about eleven o’clock they would go to Ratu Gompa, and then they would be given bread, tsampa, tea.
Ratu Gompa? So many monks, many people from all over would come to make offerings. And they would make offerings at this time. Then they would break and then they’d have again at one o’clock in the afternoon, debate would begin and this would be all the monks again to about three o’clock. And then after that, that lasted about three, and then after that they would have their individual colleges would debate to about five o’clock.
And then they would break again, and then maybe about six or seven in the evening then individual colleges would debate, and then at eight o’clock they would gather together for the mass debate. And this would go to maybe eleven and about eleven o’clock they would begin individual college debates and sometimes, and at this time some of the monks would go home and read their texts or sometimes they’d have teachings and then they’d come back to debate and continue debating. So it was it was a this was a very difficult it was extremely difficult regime of debate and study. And there was one someone said that one trader said that he was a Drepung monk once and he came to this debate. He said going to the this winter debate could drive people crazy.
Really? And he said, but they also have a summer debate. And he said the summer debate was like just staying in a park and I could it was just like compared to the winter debate and I could stay there till and I could do that till I died. That was no problem. But going to the winter debate would drive me crazy.
He used to say that. Yeah. So that’s the Because it was so rigorous and so demanding. Mentally or physically or both, I suppose? Those who who enjoyed their studies, who did well on me, and it was a very stimulating and happy time for them.
For those who didn’t like their studies and didn’t do well, then it was extremely difficult time for them. I’m just still a little bit confused about the all college debate sessions with the thousand monks. Was that one of the sessions where Rinpoche debated in nineteen fifty eight with Kur to Mervon? The that’s so remember, she sat at the evening.