Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Rather than a formal teaching, this 62-minute session at Buddha House is a working record: Khensur Rinpoche and an interviewer systematically map out Sera Monastery’s monastic curriculum, class by class, from early foundational studies through Perfection of Wisdom and Mādhyamika to the final Haram stage — a path typically spanning twenty-five years before a monk qualifies for the highest Geshe degree. Rinpoche explains the debater’s role in the monastery’s oral debate tradition, recounts the story of the Indian logician Dignāgā whose epistemological treatise a rival kept erasing until Mañjuśrī intervened, and distinguishes the four Geshe grades by their examination contexts. He closes with a personal memory: during Uma class he borrowed barley flour from friends, had no tea or new clothes, yet studied well.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 46 RS 1991 04 15.mp3
UUID: 38e4db06-3130-4173-be52-48f5d911e2aa
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1991-04-15
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 62.3 minutes
Words: ~4,681
So So this this this is what they study in Shunsarpa. Oh. Yes. So you wanna mark that down? But but I had Shum Ningpa up here for Now this is up here.
This is. This is. Srimadhara? This is one here. Yeah.
So Srimadhara also has This is what the Prajñāpāramitā. This is what this is. These are the subjects of Prajñāpāramitā. This is what they’re This is the first chapter. This is the first chapter here.
Oh, sorry. I These are these are the subjects taken out in the first chapter. And this is but Prajñāpāramitā subjects Yes. So this is this is Shunsarpa. Right.
But is can I just clarify where the news starts? Does it start with starting top seventy topics. Right. Right. Paths and paths and grounds.
Right. Form body. Turn turning the wheel of Dharma. Then then Okay. After this, they can see the old the old text class.
Okay. Yeah. And then they they do these subjects. Right. Then Don’t miss out a subject.
Yondakta. Yondakta. Yondakta is included in the new Shusaba. Yeah. After the turning of the wheel Uh-huh.
The the this is included here. I see. So it’s like a third. Yeah. Uh-huh.
Then So that then with mind generation begins the the old textual class. I see. Alright. And then in So then begins this okay. Now begins what’s it called?
The the class what is it called? Sukhusarpa. What do they have there? Oh, yeah. The form body?
They call it beginning separated topics. Beginning separate topics. Anyway, it’s called it’s Sukusarpa. Just let me write it down. Class it’d be class six, won’t it?
So how is it? Class six. Could you write it’s Tibetan name. I don’t know how to spell it. Sukhusarpa?
When they call it? Separate? Oh, they call them advanced separate topics. Yeah. That’s Beginning.
I mean, that doesn’t mean anything to me. So If you’ve got a better wording. Got And they study they study at that time, the essence of the definitive interpretive sutras. And that’s the beginning of the class called that, don’t they? Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. It means to to separate out. Separate topic. Anyway, So then with dependent arising begins.
So that’s right. They study these these subjects. All of these? Uh-huh. That’s the whole class.
Do you want the times while we go through this? Yeah. Well, we’ve got to get it all, but it seems like this this classes and the subjects and and the times of the classes might vary from the times of the subjects. If you know what I mean, like Translate an English language. Would it be possible for Rinpoche to make a list of some of these in all of these in Tibetan, and then maybe Tenzin could just roughly go through it with me in relation to this to see if I’ve got it straight, and then I could come to you?
Time. I mean, then you’re not satisfied with the way you do I’m very satisfied. Do you wanna go back through this? No. Not at this stage, but I just wondered if Rinpoche did, and he could put down the the times see, there’s a it’s a confusion between classes and subjects and times taken classes and times taken in subjects.
Just others because of the the more intelligent classes will go much quicker. Right. Alright. So it can only be It’s not what it’s not analysis. It can only be stated roughly.
So there would be a very some of the students would have to be would be in classes where the class would be kept on a subject for a much longer time because they weren’t as advanced, not advanced, they weren’t as intelligent. So they would remain in a class for a much, studying one particular subject for a longer period of time. Whereas another intelligent class would go much quicker. So it’s difficult to give a a exact time. But that’s clarified for me because I I was singing in Western terms, you know, in New But maybe we can No.
So we just say generally. Not it wouldn’t necessarily be called it. But the ducheng ducheng, small small, middle intermediate. Ducheng ducheng And advanced. Ducheng.
Would each be one year. Right. Then the shinsarbha? One year for shinsarbha? It’s number four.
Five. Fence treaties. So it’s it’s probably okay to there this is when when the big difference begins to show up and how fast they go. But it would probably be okay to say that they would do and would be done in one year. The older text class would be done in one year.
But probably some of the students would be staying longer in the new subjects. Then in the what comes after that? The Can I just ask? All the monks that came from come usually stayed three or four So they would only they would only study up to Srimsava. Right.
That’s what I thought. That’s good. So that’s the sort of roughly the cutoff point. So they could go back up. Yeah.
So it’s their choice. But but this is many of them would go back return after this time. Then Yeah. Okay. In the in the part you know, the positive parametric classes.
They would all last one year. Each of those classes would last two years. That’s Mādhyamika, is it? That’s right. Nimba, Zendigella.
Perfection classes. After after Sukhoi Nimba begins the perfection classes. I think my mind’s almost got up to saturation point. Should we leave it for today and I try not not just this topic and I’ll type it up. So after from the from the seventh so there’s eight chapters.
Sorry. Ornament. Yeah? The text that that you’re studying. Yes.
And and after from the second on through the eighth, then all of the classes are called the perfection classes. Oh, shit. So don’t have these strange names after them. And then is that Prajñāpāramitā or Pachin? That’s right.
Pachin. Pachin is Tibetan. Pachin is Sanskrit. So the class name would be Pachin, would it? Mhmm.
Anyway, we’ll do that next time. Anyway, this time when his uncle’s died, Rinpoche was in Shunsarpa. That’s right. All all his fellow monks have gone back to calm. Was that at that stage, or was it a bit later at the same time?
It would be because that’s because of the money, wasn’t it? Monks from his from his from his Dage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
That’s fine. That I mean, the ones that came with him on his own. But not all of them went back. About twenty stayed. Oh, right.
Twenty out of I’ve forgotten. Eighty, was But I think it was he Gassery? Oh, I’ve got it. You were you were you were a previous later. Yeah.
It’s alright. I’ll check it later. Damja debating. What’s Tamja mean? Tamja.
Tamja. Tamja. Tamja. Tamja. This is I’ve got it’s like a class where people sit around.
I stayed there, then people come in debating Tamja, then debating about a subject and. Yes. So the the damja damjawa damjawa is the person who answers the questions in debate. And he this person has prepared himself by studying the various texts and then he’s he is he is I mean not not in fact but theoretically he’s stating that now I’m going to bind myself to the assertions of the meanings as I’ve found in the text. That means to bind.
See. Means to bind. Commit. Uh-huh. To hold to.
What is I am going to hold to the assertions of the meanings as presented in the text. So this is the person who’s sitting down. He says, I have studied the text, and now I have found the meaning of the text, and I’m going to bind myself to whatever assertions that I have found in that text. And then the person standing up is the to send clear reasons. Means reason, means clear, means to send.
He’s he is putting the questions. Mhmm. So he is trying to create doubts, trying to whatever the assertions of the Dharma Dharma, the sitter, the answer, and the debater is trying to create doubts with respect to that. The chews brought from Bikistan. So, damja means that which is bound to.
Is bound to. And the and they say and makes a person. The person who’s? Yeah. W a.
Mhmm. And T a g? T a g. Yeah. Means reason.
Right. Means the thesis or the consequence. L, is it? What I have to add in there. I have to look up the story.
Means to send. Means just makes it a person. The questioner has it. This is the answer. Means makes it a person, like operator.
Means to send. So, sends the thesis and the reason. He’s sending or asking questions using syllogisms. That was it. Talking about the danjala.
Yeah. Well, I didn’t have very much there. I mean, I’m gonna have to collate all the bits. They’re debating about a subject. That’s what you’ve got here.
Is is that I don’t I don’t even understand what I’ve got. So these are technical terms. This is the adversary, Nagol, and Chigpa is the proponent. I’m a I’d have I’d have to look up those. So I hope you didn’t mention Nagol and Chigal.
Maybe you could just help me look for this book again on debate. Yeah. That would be very helpful. Same. But you just leave the wa off and say, wah it a person.
So they don’t debate in the first class which would be. Is that right? Is that No. No. They debate in the first class.
Debate He wanted to shift this from the the from the from the old class to the new class. Oh, well, dependent arising. But it’s a new class. Oh, good. Okay.
Ramen, the next time for when we’ll get together, Rumupeshay is gonna have to see whether ‘s gonna be okay. Oh. Yeah? So he’ll Then I’m gonna then I’m gonna go away for a week. Oh.
Don’t know. Week. What? At the same time as you? Mhmm.
So this Friday, can I from each of the three of Khamsang, from each of the three? Is that So this this debate session special debate session is called. Very auspicious to hear these things. Jiang. Jiang.
There are different meanings, but listen. Jiang. Is the place. It’s the place where they had the debate session. And Jiang means as it means.
Gung means gung [winter]. Winter. Winter. Chu is in abbreviation of Chura, debate. Oh. Debate.
Chura. Chura. So it’s the the winter debate session at this place called Jamyang, Mandarin. Chura. And what they would debate at this time is Pramānavārttika by Dharmakīrti.
This is what they would debate. And his teacher was named the Dharmakīrti’s teacher was named Dignāgā. And Dignāgā wrote a group of texts called Tshad ma kun las btus pa. Semakundu. The I have to find out what the got the name of that.
Comment the collection Compendium of Prime Cognition. Compendium of Prime Cognition. He wrote he wrote this. And when he was living in India, he was he would you know, he had a slate. Dignāgā had a slate, and he was living in a small hut, near a village.
And he was composing a text, and he was writing the homage. There’s a very famous homage that he wrote. Mhmm. And he would write it down. And then having written it down, he would go off and go for alms to the village.
Mhmm. And then he would come back, and it would be erased. And he’d again, he’d compose this homage. He’d go off and go back and come back, and it would be erased. And he began to wonder who was erasing it.
So he he he hid one day to find out who was erasing it, and it would turn out to be this one non-Buddhist who was wanted to challenge him in his in debate. So the non-Buddhist, they had Dignāgā and this non-Buddhist had a debate. And the Dignāgā won, defeated the non-Buddhist, and the the non-Buddhist became very angry and upset, and fire came out of his mouth. And and, this Dignāgā became very depressed about this. He said, you know, there wasn’t any benefit in having defeated him.
That’s why he, harm sentient beings by by, causing him to be so upset and creating so much negative karma by becoming angry. And he said to him, maybe I shouldn’t compose a text. Maybe it’s of no benefit. So he he wrote he had a slate, which was written down as famous homage, and he threw it up in the air. And he said if this if this slate falls down, then then this this text I’m trying to write is of no benefit to anybody, and I I won’t I won’t finish it.
But if it if it never comes down, if it doesn’t come down, then that will be a sign that there will be some benefit from writing this text. So he threw the text the slate up in the air, and it didn’t come down. And and he looked up, and, Mañjuśrī had installed in the slate. And Mañjuśrī said that this he should go ahead and finish Yes. Yes.
So all the all the monks so all they would they would have this debate session every year, and all the monks from all the monasteries would come. And this debate session would begin on the eleventh the first day of the eleventh month and go for one and a half months. Mainly what their main topic of debate is, Semenamdra, pramāna Vartika. The, but, I mean, the base the source of this, the main the basic text is this Semakundu, the Compendium of Prime Cognition by Dannaga. Then there were many commentaries.
One they mainly rely on is Paramahabharthika by Dharmakīrti. But there are many ones by other masters that have commentaries, and they would use their various college textbooks. We all had Mhmm. Commentaries upon this particular text. Each college had its own.
Yeah. They would and so they would all come together and debate one and a half months every year. And was it just the Drehulk Kansans, or was it all across All all the everybody. Past the. So there was no special grouping as to district houses, but there was groupings according to colleges.
Is it Taosang a college and a Dre a Khamsan district? District house. Taosang is college. So there’s, like, there’s J Trasong. Trasong.
And there’s May. So J is at Trasong? J is Trasong. Thank you. So they they would they would go to this place.
They would walk to this place according to their colleges, and each of the monks would have a place to stay. It’s now Tuesday, the sixteenth of April nineteen ninety one and continuing with Rinpoche and Jampa at Buddha House going through Sera Monastery details. Tuesday, April sixteenth. Yeah. This is the item.
What did you you wrote d z o, did you? D z o. That would be d z u, because my computer doesn’t It’s the number six, is it? Just beginning. Ancillary topics.
Separate topics. Ancillary topics. Yeah. Number six. So they’re not in the mainstream of the studies, they’re they’re sort of ancillary or separate topics.
This separate is okay. But this this is spelled Sutterkor. What is it? T t h s u r k o r. Sutterkor.
These two. Nice. And Mhmm. These alternate. There’s number five and number seven I’ve got listed here.
They alternate. They alternate back and forth. Between what studied? Yeah. Sometimes they have then they then they switch over to then they go back to.
This can be deleted. This is included in Included in? The That one. Yeah. So it’s not need it doesn’t need to listed separately.
Okay. Also, these two, because they alternate with one another. They’re they’re considered as one class. Oh. And therefore, there’s a total of thirteen classes.
Oh, I see. He wants he wants to come out with thirteen. He wants to come out with thirteen. One, two, three, four, five, six. We come out with twelve if we do that, don’t we?
No. There’s fourteen now. There’s fourteen now. Yeah. Look.
But we’ve done away with two, so we’ve come out with No. No. These these two are combined in one. Yeah. So you did away with one.
Okay. And this one, that doesn’t count. You had fifteen. You take this one away. Yeah.
So And then you take you combine to so you get thirteen. But then you say the same for this one. No. They didn’t. Oh, that’s the same.
How big So also there’s another subject which is studied intermediate intermittently during which is a prominent article prominent article or nombre. And but it’s only it’s studied only intermediately, so it’s not listed as a separate subject. But it begins they begin the study of prominent article or nombre after when they get to after Xingmingpa? Yes. After the After that.
After that. Yeah. And then they they studied intermediately. Intermittently. Do you mean?
Yeah. Intermittently up up through Parchan? Yeah. And then they set it aside until they finish Uma? And then they begin Uma Nima.
The end of Uma Nima. Is that right? And they don’t study it during this period? Oh, oh, sorry. I see.
Yes. And then they begin study it again, intimate intermittently, in dua, in zut. So they don’t study it at all doing Oma, sharper or numa. Mhmm. So they begin they begin to study Can you print it for me?
Pranavadhika? Yeah. So they don’t they don’t So Numbrol’s the Tibetan name for this what is it, Pram? Pramatavartika. From virtually from class six six to to the end, but not during.
Yeah. Probably don’t remember who has this. Paro do Champa. How would you write? Paro.
P a r o? Do you? Do you do you? Chimpa, what was it? Chimpa.
Chimpa. C h I m p a. And what about Uma? Uma, that’s okay. That’s alright.
And and is got an l in it. Yeah. I that’s okay. No. Yeah.
It was just and That’s right. Abhidharma. Abhidharma. Yeah. Sanskrit.
And is this one is is Uma a dua? Uma Uma is. Good. Yeah. I’ve got that.
And Dhulva Vinaya? Vinaya. Good. And this one, this this separate topic, so this what would you call is there a Sanskrit word for that? No.
Which one which one’s that? Oh, that’s this one. Numbra. Numbra. Numbra.
N a m, is it? N I have to check this. N a m Yeah. D r e l. Numbra.
That’s primitive art primal And that’s a sanskrit, isn’t it? Mhmm. Okay. Good. Up to somewhere.
And the in part Pachin, the main text that they study is is Right. And this in Sanskrit is Abhisamayālamkāra. Now somehow, I’ve got to get all these texts, tell Rinpoche. This So that’s gonna be a bit of a headache. So then I just wanted to, in my mind, get the classes down and then to get all the texts.
So this karam goes under Abhidharma. That’s right. It’s part of Abhidharma, really, is it? Mhmm. Class.
During the The last class? Haram? Oh, yes. Yes. They study what they do, they review and review and and and some.
That’s what they that’s what they study doing the plaid. That’s a sort of fine polishing of everything. Now, I wrote down here, and you better check with Ruche if this is correct, that each is allotted roughly a year depending on the abilities. It’s not quite right. I had a feeling it wasn’t.
The each of those are two years. Oh. So two years each. Mhmm. True.
And then Alright. Alright. So, yeah, that’s right. So, yeah, so this amidharma is the class of zu is divided in the new and old, or beginning and advanced. And what we mean by advanced is the Karam class.
And so each of those are one year. So it takes two years. It takes two years to do zu. But they’re not this is one class. I mean, they’re Yeah.
They just call they just call it zit, and it takes two years. The older class is called Karam. The second year is called Karam. But but they did Wow. So it’s a mighty long time, isn’t it?
And what about Laram? How long does that take? Haraam class they remain in haraam class until they take their geshe examination. And this could last from two to five years. So you wouldn’t get any geshe’s under about thirty five because it’s almost a twenty year study course, isn’t it?
So, generally, it takes about from the beginning of studying of dudra Mhmm. Till they take their Geshe examination, it takes twenty five So from the beginning of the study until they actually take the Geshe examination, it usually takes about twenty five years. But when we say Geshe here, we’re talking about Geshe la Rampa. But there are four grades of Geshe’s. And the lower grades of Geshe’s, wouldn’t take that long.
We’re always talking in terms of the highest deshin goreng. Can I just clear up where the lower Geshe should start off? Could they do theirs earlier or something? The So so as far as going through the classes, until they reach Uma Sarpa, the students remain, have to go through, they go through with their individual classes. They work, they go along with their classes.
Having each, when they reach Uma, Sarpa, then the Tokus, the reincarnate lamas, and the Chinzut Chinzut, what do we call that? That’s come up before. The. I think I think. Think So we talked about before.
It’s it’s a title that they this then the students are giving. Yes. Oh, yes. If they make big donations, if they’re economically well off. So, tokus and chinsu.
When they get they get to level of Umasapa, then they can go very rapid. They can go very rapidly through. They can go very rapidly through. But they cannot do their Geshe, the Haram Geshe before they finish the Karam. So, so okay.
So the first they’re going through the levels of Geshe. I mean, the first one is called. Yeah. Doctor did you do this? I think we did.
I think I’ve got the names, gonna do it. But I did I haven’t got all the details. Yeah. I can do it. Do you have this?
I think it’s I think it might be in here. So Lingse, l I n g s e r. So these are these are individuals who are recognized by their individual district houses. They’re given the name Geishey. And they do they’re very good at memorization, for example, but they’re not very good at answering.
But they do take an examination. The district houses award them the title of Geshe Lingse. Ling means place. Se means to I think it means to put. To put.
It just means the place where they are, their particular monastery or Khamseng, gives them, applies his name to them. That’s the lowest grade Geshe. Riranga Riram Geshe. R I r a m. The next Geshe is called Riram Geshe.
And in the seventh month of the Tibetan year, there is what is called the monks take the summer. So they they take this the summer rains retreat Oh, vows. Oh, yeah. In which they they set boundaries whether or they don’t go outside of. And this usually lasts three months, but set the boundaries for at least a month and a half.
And during this period they have they have they in the morning they eat tsampa and cupcis and lunch they have tsampa almost every day. They have special food and they have special debate sessions at at the during this during this period. And two monks so this is Sera Je and Sera May come together. And then two from May, two from Jay sit for their examinations. And then they’re given this name by the combined monastery.
They’re given the name Riram Geshe by the combined minister, those who passed this examination. Now, would Rinpoche set for those exams? These are the kind of the intermediate. They’re usually older monks who have finished Karam, but they they’re sort of milling. Aren’t going to go on any further.
And so they they’re selected by their by their monastery to sit this examination. I see. And then if and then they pass it, then they’re given the title of Rirang Geshe by the two bank combined monasteries. Just so, for instance, when Lamalundra was here, he didn’t have his Geshe, and he kept saying, I’m gonna study for it. And then I heard that he’s become a Geshe since.
So I just wondered how that occurred. For instance, is he a Riram? So in order to become a Geshe Lharampa, have to study well both Abhidharma and Vinaya, and Namruta didn’t study this well. So again, there’s there’s another the the third level is called. In this in the second month of the Tibetan year, the in plaza, the three monasteries, Ganden, Drepung, and Sera, come together.
And this tradition was come came together when the when the the fifth Dalai Lama died. When he died, they they the monks came together for for for ceremonies and they and they kept the tradition of coming together. And it’s called the subsequent gathering because it’s it’s a subsequent to the to the Monlam festival. Monlam festival. Comes after Monlam.
So it’s a subsequent festival. So the monks from the three monasteries gather and they have debate sessions. It lasts about twelve days and they meet at the Jokhang. And it’s at this time that the the Geishis from the students That’s a Chokhang, what I call Chokhang. Main cathedral.
And those so now this is now this time it’s all three monasteries and the selected students are now sit and for their Geshe examination. But these are the students who are fairly good in answering, but they aren’t quite the top grade. So they take this examination and passing this they’re awarded the title of Sogdram Geshe. It’s so to do with Gathering together, coming together. Gathering.
Gathering. Yes. So this we’ve talked about this before. This is when they they this is We’re up to Laram now. Laram.
This they It’s just the fall. Yeah. They they they talked about at the they take their examination at Monlam Festival where all the monasteries come together making offerings and various prayers and then they take their examination. So it’s up to the individual monasteries to examine their students and to determine what level of Geshe they’re going to be be examined at whether it’s the Lingse, examined at, whether it’s the Lingse yidam. Where was that taken?
The to bring you yidam at the summer rains retreat. Oh, Jain. Or the or or the. So So is the highest. So the individual monasteries would determine the quality of their student and they would then place them in one of these to take one of these levels of examination.
The time when all Rinpoche’s fellow students had gone back to come, and he was in the the. That’s right. Mhmm. Good. It was a really hard time for food.
And sometimes you had to borrow tsampa from friends. Tea. No tsampa. I didn’t have any tea or new clothes either. There was not much food, but I studied well because of this.
This is the same as the MONOM festival. Okay. So that was that was when he was in UMA class. Is that right? UMA UMA Sapa.
UMA Sapa. The new beginning. So