Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Here is the draft paragraph:
In this 93-minute session, Khensur Rinpoche recounts his early life in Kham, eastern Tibet, in a candid 1988 interview at Buddha House. Moving chronologically, he describes childhood farming — barley and wheat, tending animals, sewing shoes alongside a visiting tailor — and three years of study with Ganden Rinpoche before Dargay Monastery’s destruction in 1933. A striking passage covers Mao Zedong’s army retreating into Kham in 1938: columns of unarmed peasants taking three days to pass, while Rinpoche’s family buried their possessions and hid in the forest. The session then follows him to Chamdo, where he spent his teenage years trading deer musk, medicinal herbs, and Chinese tea with his uncle to raise funds for rebuilding the monastery. Oral history rather than dharma instruction; essential for those drawn to twentieth-century Tibetan life.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 05 RS 1988 11 17.mp3
UUID: bdd574ba-b2b2-46d2-943e-e7124c3dbc7d
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1988-11-17
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 93.5 minutes
Words: ~4,352
So he’s written down all the various important dates of when he was born, when he went to Mamak, when he went to Sera, when he became a geshe, when he went to India, when he became abbot. Could we go through those briefly or later? That’s it. That’s what collection do you remember? Okay.
We can go through this slowly. Alright. Yeah. Oh, good. Good.
Yeah. Because I think that’s really, really good. We probably should do a chronological and link it up with historical events and things too. Yeah. That’s really cool.
It’s nice. That’s great. I was just gonna — I’m just gonna show my turquoise, and I’ve got some of my goddess. And what he studied, all the various texts that he has studied. Yeah.
I think that’s really important to get it worked out. Transmissions and teachings. I should think we could do those. I don’t know whether you call it appendix or what, but we should have those. Or — Uh-huh.
That one. Yeah. Did he learn anything much about the folk heroes of Tibet like Gesar of Ling? Were they part of his early stories, or were they all religious? Gesar of Ling.
Gesar — Gesar of Ling. Yeah. I don’t know what they’re saying. Stories — yes. Yeah.
That would be really interesting. And even just to go through the old. All the various transmissions, the various precepts, the various teachings that he’s received from various teachers. That would be really good. There’s a lot more to do.
Maybe he’s got some time in this holiday. And the various difficulties that he’s experienced. Yes. Yes. The various problems.
Yes. That’s the most encouraging to all of us. So he’s asked that they send some of his — whatever they have, some pictures of that were taken in Tibet. Oh. And pictures that were taken of Buxaduar when they said to go to Buxaduar.
And then pictures from Buxaduar. Buxaduar. When they — he first came out of Tibet. Wonderful. And then when he became — Oh, yes.
Pictures when he became abbot. Oh, this sort of makes it so wonderful. When he gave the — very important. Transmission of the teachings of the Buddha. Please until he you, it’s asked that those be sent.
To him, that will make it much more alive. Yeah. So you’re going through a lot of trouble, so you think that maybe the photographs would make the book even better. They will. To be able to show those things, especially to Westerners, would be wonderful.
Mhmm. Well, it’s time for you. He thinks this might be — this and he might be from India. Does he? Tell him I’ve got it in Lhasa.
How can he tell? How does he know? I think it’s the better. How — why?
I mean, how can he tell? It’s Candace — can hear. It is. Candace can hear. You wanna — it’s much lighter, isn’t it?
Could you tell me what to do with this? Did you give a lot for this? I can’t remember. And then you would do — they wouldn’t bargain much. They — I wanted to drop the price, but it was right before I was leaving.
And so I hadn’t got anything. Fair bit but not not I mean I didn’t have that much. But they wouldn’t drop their price. I think there must be lots of other tourists they knew they could sell them to perhaps. Or perhaps they pay.
One place in India where they have these turquoise and the people who go to Tibet, they go there, buy it, they take it to Tibet, and they sell it there. So the first people went to Tibet, they got — they were tricked into thinking this would — but after a while, people didn’t know — there really wasn’t — it was it really wasn’t Tibetan turquoise. Did — what about the red coral? Did they get red coral into Tibet ever? It’s the — well, I don’t know.
Just the red — just say red stone, the one that goes — Rawa. Rawa? What a nice — well, well, let’s — it’s like this, but this is just a bead. But Tibetan women wear — and it’s Thursday the seventeenth of November nineteen eighty eight Mister Boucher — got a cold?
No. Could you ask Rinpoche if we could go through the main events and the dates on the piece of paper. Would that be convenient for him to do that today to work out? I could put his birth date and nineteen thirty three when the Chinese came. And then the — when was that?
When was his birthday? Twenty five twelve twenty five. And then what would be most significant? That you’re asking me. Uh-huh.
Perhaps just the date of his beginning of his ordination, that would roughly — that’ll be three years later, wouldn’t it? Okay. Then it ruptures? When he became — when he became a so-called monk. Little.
So then he went to — nineteen thirty two, he went to Dargay Gompa. Oh, right. Dargay Monastery. Mhmm. And made prayers to become a monk.
So this is like — I don’t know. Going forth to be a monk or something like that. Making prayers. Yeah. Mhmm.
Then — yep. Then he stayed one year. So nineteen thirty three, the monastery was destroyed. Yeah. So then nineteen thirty four, one year later, he joined Ganden Rinpoche and began his studies.
Joined the one — this is the one in his own village — in Rinda. Yeah. That’s when he went to him — however you want to say it — to study with Ganden Rinpoche to begin his studies, and began to study there. He began writing and studying the alphabet. And that went on. So he stayed there till nineteen thirty seven.
In the winters, he would study. In the summers, he would spend with his father, you know, with the herds. So nineteen thirty eight. Yeah. So nineteen thirty eight, he returned and stayed at his home and worked in his home.
Uh-huh. He’s so cute. It’s so cute. What? I’m not a not a — you want to know what types of work he did?
Yes. Oh. He would help in the plowing. Mhmm. That was in springtime or what?
He would help in the spring planting and the fall harvest. In the winter, he would make clothing and shoes. Clothing and shoes? Right.
He would sew clothing and shoes. Could he just give some more details about how he makes the shoes? Oh. Simple — young. Oh. Younger then?
He’s kinda roam. Oh. So he would assist the tailor. The tailor would come to the house, and he would assist him. So he also had to tend the animals.
Like, he used to take them out and pasture them during the day and then come back, and then he would have to clean the stalls, and then arrive in the stalls. The way they lived down — he would have to clean up. So there was a lot of work. It was a lot of animals.
Well, how did they plow the field? Was it with a yak or a — did they have a hand plow? They would use two. Two. Oh.
Okay. And that plow joined the back or what? We should have a photo of the. Yeah. Don’t have unless it’s in here.
I didn’t bring the photos today. Show. Show. I — we’ve got that photo. Yeah.
Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. It’s the same, I think, as the one I had. I haven’t got it today.
Yeah. Only hats today. No plow. What’s Rinpoche’s name? Numba.
Numba. Where is it? Where is this from? Let me see. Drebond.
Drebond. Drebond. Drebond. Draper. In internet?
Yeah. Draper. Draper. Oh. This is a guide for foreign tourists.
So they would plow — they plant barley and that — dreamer — that would — it was white and black. White and — I — may maybe like — on the haricot beans and — maybe like some kind of pulse, like dal. Dal? Yeah. Yeah.
And then I’m not tall. Wheat. No corn. No corn? Mhmm.
What was that? So this one. So the main crops were these three. The three. Yeah.
Wheat and barley, but no corn. No corn. Was corn grown elsewhere? They didn’t grow it yesterday. Such as.
They didn’t in every area plant corn. And did each family plant the three crops, or did they only plant — per family, sort of thing. So all each family would plant all three. Alright.
But mostly they would plant barley then wheat. Just a little bit of — ah. Yeah. Good. So it’d be something like two thirds would be barley, perhaps.
Half would be barley. So much. Yeah. And then two’s to a third would be wheat, and a sixth would be — ah. Dreamer.
Ah. Something like that. Oh. Yeah. Yeah.
Good. And then that one is so good. Right? Yes. Well, you wanna tell me more about that period of time for the moment?
Do you have anything else about that? I will go on. Go on. Alright. This is.
In nineteen thirty eight, that’s when Mao Zedong came to a rise in power. Mao Zedong. Chinese army came in nineteen thirty eight. Sino-Japanese war. The Chinese army came in thirty eight.
Yeah. Right. The Guomindang national army — So nineteen thirty eight, they came into his district. Chinese army.
This was the beginning of the rise of Mao Zedong. Oh, wow. I wonder if Mao started in this area. I don’t know. I don’t know either.
Was it a communist army or a nationalist army? The army — they got — marble over there. Marble. Is it coming? I don’t know.
Do ask him. Is this the area where Mao started? Because he didn’t take over the whole of China till much later. So he said previously, Mao Zedong had gone to Russia to study. Mhmm.
And at this time, he began — he came back and began to incite the people — Oh, beginning. To overcome the government. So this is what he’s referring to, the rise — the initial rise of Mao Zedong. Mao Zedong himself came. It was Mao Zedong’s army.
So he was trying to incite the people to rise up. The Tibetan people? The Chinese. He came to his district, but this — that he was trying to incite the Chinese. So initially, he in China, he was trying to incite the Chinese.
Yeah. And he began to travel around, and he came to his district for two months. There were many poor Chinese, and he tried to — he was trying to incite them. So there were Chinese living around Rinpoche’s area. So, previously, there were few.
And then Mao Zedong came and a lot of Chinese came into his district. They stayed for two months, then they left — they went back to China. But there were just a few Chinese previously. Where would the Chinese have lived? They were in the — village.
So there weren’t any previous Chinese in his history. So Mao Zedong was trying to incite the peasants to rise up against the government, and they had started having conflicts with the government — the nationalist government. And so he retreated back into Kham — Oh. For two months with all his men. Oh.
And he stayed there for two months, then he went back to China. And how did he feed his men in Kham? Some people offered it and some people — he bought — he bought food and some people offered food. He bought it. Mhmm.
So he didn’t take it — so he probably stole some of it, and he had lots of clothing and things like that to trade for food. And he got some of it by buying — by trading for food. Wonder, in those days, did the Tibetans in Kham and Rinpoche’s family know — distinguish any difference between the communist Chinese and the nationalist Chinese? The nationalist Chinese. Chiang Kai-shek?
Chiang Kai-shek? Chiang Kai-shek? So they distinguish between the two? Do they see any difference in their values or their attitudes to the Tibetans? Said there was one distinguishing factor — was that the view of the nationalist — Chinese — the present government during that period was in accordance with — supported Buddhism.
Whereas Mao Zedong was communist, and they didn’t want to have anything to do with religion. So the nationalists supported Buddhism a great deal. Even though they destroyed his. So the — so you said it wasn’t the main government which destroyed — which directed it — that destroyed his — right. Monastery — one of the — he calls it, like, a local faction.
Yeah. Or what we call it. Yeah. They were the ones who destroyed his Dargay Monastery. Not the not the it — Nachy.
Nachy. Nachy. Nachy. That’s a kind of a special word.
Nachy. Yeah. So they were the ones who destroyed it. Yeah. Not the main government.
Did Rinpoche or his family actually see the young Mao Zedong at all? That’s when they had loaded up all the possessions and moved to another area. Was it thirty-three? The thirty-three? Mhmm.
Mhmm. And then Mao’s army left too. Yeah. Mhmm. You cannot see — my — can the.
So this was another time, wasn’t it? Yeah. Thought it must have been. Oh. Yeah.
So they were afraid that the Chinese would take away their possessions. So they loaded up all their possessions and the animals and went to another area. And what year would this have been? The — said, yeah. That is — what?
Thirty — so they loaded up all their household possessions and took their animals and went to another area. Where did they go? You know, should. So if they had stayed, there was a chance the Chinese would have taken their possessions. Did they go very far?
Probably not far. Oh, no. Probably — he said it’s the same place that they went to when they escaped when the Dargay Gompa was being destroyed. Right. Right.
I can’t see it. It’s — it’s only a couple of days — look at my — it’s extremely small. I think it’s small. Extremely small. Yeah.
Yeah. Did he have relatives there? This is no. There was just an empty area. Oh, such a span.
There was many trees. So they hid — they — They could hide. They hid within the trees and buried their possessions. So they stayed about a month and a half. And then when the army left, they came back.
How many would he have had in his army roughly? So he said — I mean, it’s just great, great, great numbers. But they said there were four columns or four rows of soldiers and that you could — they would — it would take three days for them to pass by. Oh. Oh.
Okay. Many, many. And do you remember — I see them at all? Ah. Cannot see.
He just heard. Those people who stayed, he told him that — yeah. He didn’t see them. Does he know whether Zhou Enlai was there with Mao Zedong? Was he with the nationalist Chinese at one time?
I think not. He was the right hand man of Mao Zedong. He was the — he was president, wasn’t he? Yeah. Not that I not to my knowledge, but all things — Rinpoche thinks he was with the old — with the old girlfriend.
Oh, I wonder if — or maybe — maybe — oh. I don’t — we won’t worry. It seems to be — was that must have been the whole communist army then, must it? At that time. True.
True — in life. So it’s then — it’s true in life — was Mao Zedong’s partner. Oh. Must be our renunciations. It’s Mao Zedong’s prime minister. Yes.
Oh. Yeah. That way it says — oh, it’s pronounced — not not — was with the previous government. Who was with the previous government? Was with the previous government, and was the prime minister — well, I — him whether Zhou Enlai was — the Zhou — yeah. Zhou — like him.
He was he was too. So it must have been the whole communist army at that time. Yeah. Yeah. So the entire — entire.
Communist army. Army. Most of them didn’t have — they didn’t have guns. They didn’t have any possessions. They’re just like beggars.
They were mostly peasants. Poor poor Chinese peasants. Yeah. The poor peasants rose up. Yeah.
They were mostly just peasants. So it would be easy for Chiang Kai-shek’s army with guns to drive them back? Even though they didn’t have guns, there were just so many. Oh. Just the numbers.
Sheer numbers. That’s the way they won. Yeah. And the Chinese people liked Mao Zedong. The Chinese people?
Yeah. So they would be just for the — yeah. Because there were so many of them, that’s the way they won. Oh. You know, there were always more and more peasants that were willing to follow him.
What did Rinpoche himself think? What sort of person does Rinpoche think Mao Zedong was? So he wasn’t — he wasn’t a simple person. Okay. Was an evil evil person.
So that was nineteen thirty nine for a couple of months, was it? Two months? Thirty eight. Thirty eight. Sorry.
So later, I think fifty five, when His Holiness the Dalai Lama went to China to meet Mao Zedong. And afterwards, the Dalai Lama said that Mao Zedong had said that the dharma was no good — ah. And that — at first, he thought maybe Mao Zedong was a good person, but then after that, he decided that he was not a good person. Right. Right.
Mhmm. So he thought — so then okay. So in thirty seven, when the army left, they came back to their home, you know, having run away. Thirty seven. Yeah.
Thirty eight. I’m sorry. Thirty eight. Yeah. They came back.
Then he came to Chamdo. Chamdo. So he went to Chamdo in nineteen thirty eight. After he returned home. He went to, yeah, to Chamdo.
So Chengdu. Oh. Right. He had left when they were destroying the monastery. Darge.
Darge Monastery. He had gone to Chamdo. So that was — yeah. He went to join his uncle in Chamdo — right. Nineteen thirty eight.
So his other uncle had stayed with him all the time in his home. Or — the — I forgot his name. His other uncle had been staying in his home. Yeah. He was still there.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Roachan.
Roachan. So Roachan. Roachan was the area, I think, the district. Roachan. Then he went to another place.
It takes two, three days to get there. Roachan. Then Roachan. No. Changdo.
Oh, so he went back and forth from this place called — I thought it might be there, but I don’t know where to look. I don’t know what to see — that star gate. Don’t know what direction. Direction is it? It’s west of.
West. West? Yeah. Is it? Yeah.
Oh. Not much less. In Bangalore? Is — oh. Oh, god. Somewhere down in here. It’s even hard to find Lhasa.
Mhmm. Mhmm. We found it last time. So the position four. Here’s the road here.
Here it is. Did we say that before? What was it? So we can’t find Zacchu. Molchu.
Molchu. And Zacchu. Something like — when you stayed in when you went to Lhasa? Yeah. Put — they call it they call it.
Now near. Near. Bakur. Bakur. Near.
Oh, he doesn’t know. Yeah. So that — that was a big — Chamdo was a big administrative center for the Tibetan government, and Chamdo was a big administrative center for the Tibetan government. Right. Yeah.
Then — so this is where the tax officers would stay. Oh, I see. So it shouldn’t be too difficult to find. Alright. Alright.
So it was a town as well as a monastery. It’s quite a big — Drunk here. Like, try a big city. Big — oh, we should we should be able to — and so how many monks would there have been in that monastery? It’s about nine hundred — is it bigger than Dage?
Bigger. Bigger? Oh. So it was nineteen hundred. I think you said it.
Two thousand? Oh. These days, maybe there’s a thousand monks. Yeah. But in the past, it was about two thousand.
Two thousand. What did Rinpoche do at that monastery when he was there with his uncle? So he helped his uncle? He did business? His father was a trader, a businessman.
What was your father? Uncle. Oh. His uncle. So this is where they reformed the Darge Monastery.
It was destroyed. They reformed it at Chamdo. Chamdo, and so they needed lots of money to rebuild the monastery, so he was doing business. Oh. To raise money.
To raise money. Oh, what’s a business? Trading? He was dealing in musk, deer musk. And horns.
And skins. I know what — some kind of — they also gathered some kind of herb for medicines they made. Herbs. Yeah. In the winter, they would gather.
In the winter, they gathered — it’s called bu. Bu. And then in the summer, they gather dzah. Dzah. And they would make medicines from these herbs.
That’s a man — dude. Man. A man. Yeah. And then when they had a big banquet, they would also use these as seasoning spices.
Spices. These are plants that grow on the hills or something? Yeah. They grew in that area. So they would — do they collect the root or the leaves or berries?
The — the Buddha. I think I know what it is. I think I know what is. They would use it for medicine, but the Chinese ate them in their foods, but the Tibetans didn’t eat these. And they’re just very small.
I don’t know. Their roots? Play. Play. The the — yeah.
Yeah. So they — Oh, yeah. Yeah. They eat the root and the root inches. The roots were about two inches, and then the actual plant grew up another inch above that.
Oh, it’s only little. They just used the root. Oh. And the Tibetans made medicine, but the Chinese ate it in their food. Oh.
So Rinpoche was trading in these things with his uncle. Okay. For one sort of working — Mhmm. Yeah. He was working with his uncle in business.
Trading — for example, did get tea from China. Mhmm. And then they would trade these other medicines and things like that for the tea? For the tea. And then resell the tea.
Oh. So did he stay all the time in Chamdo and just did the business with people passing through, or did he have to — he was saying he was traveling back and forth from Chamdo and — oh. And that other Roachan. Roachan. Roachan and — oh.
Bigger. Yeah. So they would trade around that entire area, they would travel back and forth from Roachan and. Now I’m sorry. I didn’t quite understand.
How long did it take to go between the two? By horse two or three days. So they got on horseback? There wasn’t any car. They didn’t walk.
They went on horseback. They got by horse. They couldn’t walk. Did the monastery have horses? They did.
So he stayed in this village. He didn’t stay in the monastery. So because he was doing a lot of trading and business, he didn’t stay in the monastery. Did he have a family or friends who stayed at their house today? The Ashoki house.
No. No. No. I don’t know. So had the —
And he had one — that one nun that came from his home. Oh, his aunt. His mother’s sister. She was — she stayed in the home with the uncle. Oh, wow.
The one — any chick in Shamba? She didn’t want her. Maybe. Yeah.
His aunt stayed there. Oh, and his aunt answering? Mhmm. Drummer. That’s up to nineteen forty.
He’s at about fifteen. Then they went back to their home district, and they went back to Darge Monastery in nineteen forty? Nineteen forty. So that was more being rebuilt by then, pretty much? Yeah.
Yeah. Younger Gepzar. They were hundred? Some of the monks had disrobed in Chamdo. Because some didn’t come back.
Some had died. So he said maybe — checked. A few new monks, so that maybe five hundred monks. So between say, after nineteen thirty seven, did Rinpoche continue any studies, or it was more working life? Can I — for three years?
So he studied, but he didn’t study much about the Dharma. Yes. It’s very good balance. He studied a lot about business. Was he good with money?
I think so. Must be very good later on. Good experience. Yeah. So his uncle just taught him about the business and whatever his uncle wanted him to do.
That’s what he did for that period of time. He told him how to sell and how to buy. Karma Prajnashek — explain a little bit about that and the currency and how did they deal with money or with promise of just trading goods and goods? You cannot — so they would pay money. So they would get tea — they would get tea from, for example, from China, then they would sell the tea around the area?
Would they use money to pay for the tea or the medicines — that exchange for the medicines? Yeah. So they would — they would — some money, some skins, some medicine.