Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Venerable Thubten Dondrub teaches the fourth day of a Kelsang Institute retreat, continuing a detailed commentary on the Lamrim text’s section on cultivating patience toward those who harm us. Over two hours, he works through verses thirty-four to forty-nine, guiding practitioners through why anger at harmers is unreasonable. The teachings progress through five key arguments: beings harm us due to ignorance (comparable to getting angry at fire for burning), harm arises from their temporary afflictions not permanent nature, the direct and indirect causes of suffering implicate our own karma and body as much as the harmer’s actions, our past karma instigates others to harm us (making us responsible for their karmic consequences), and finally, anger itself is simply wrong. Throughout, Dondrub uses concrete examples—self-harm from obsession, suicide, poison—and explains how each argument logically dissolves the basis for anger. He includes a Q&A section addressing whether practitioners who have harmed others accumulate negative karma when their victims fall into hell realms, and how patience practice both prevents new negativities and helps purify past ones through bearing hardship on the spiritual path.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 24. Day 4 Teaching morning.mp3
UUID: 554ecc1a-b765-488e-b5ea-35298a355614
Teacher: Ven Thubten Dondrub
Collection: KI Retreat (Ven Thubten Dondrub)
Date: 2005 (exact day not recorded)
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 107.8 minutes
Words: ~5,219
So this if you turn to the Kiten prayer section, and it is page page eighteen. Bottom of page eighteen, and then we go to page twenty. And then page twenty two. So now we have to develop a good motivation. So now whatever virtue we are going to engage in, we have to think that before engaging in any virtue, have to think that I’m going to engage in this activity now in order to achieve enlightenment for the sake of So then we finish last time, we finished with verse thirty four.
We got into the commentary, and the commentary is getting now into another one of the main divisions, which is cultivating patience that pays no heed to those who cause harm. And then this topic has three parts to it. And the first one is engaging the mind in the method of compassion. The second the second is arresting the causes of anger. The third is reflecting that unwanted occurrences are due to one’s own faults.
Okay? So the first topic, which is engaging the mind in the methods of compassion, has again three parts to it. The first part is some beings cause us harm due to lack of understanding. Then the second part is if due to lack of understanding, one can kill even oneself, then it is no surprise that they can harm others. And then the third the third part is, therefore, is reasonable to feel compassion for them.
So, Gela was explaining to me the next verse, which is verse thirty five. I’m going to give you Stephen Batchelor’s translation. It’s through not being careful, people harm themselves with thorns and other things, and for the sake of obtaining women and the like, they become obsessed and deprive themselves of food. So again, I was just giving a brief commentary on each of these lines. And he says, not being careful refers that these people are not aware of of of virtues, and and and they they are easily overwhelmed by afflictions and so forth.
And then so that means so they harm themselves with with thorns and and and and they cut themselves and and other things. So for the sake of obtaining women and then obtaining material wealth and and so forth, people get obsessed. And then being obsessed, they they accumulate a lot of negativities, and they get angry and so forth, and then they even go without food trying to obtain these things. So the guy I was reading for for the commentary, which is which says pretty much what he has said before on top of the verse. It says, so others I mean, those those people who are overwhelmed by by afflictions and careless, those beings who, how do you say, who end up accidentally harming themselves with thorns and other objects and so forth.
So if they even harm themselves carelessly in this way, so there’s no surprise that they, how do you say, it’s no wonder that they harm others also. So some some people, for the sake of obtaining a woman and riches and so forth, striving to obtain these things, they get obsessed again, and they get angry. And out of anger and so forth, again, they they they go without food and and other necessities. They’re starting to obtain these things. So, again, we we got into verse thirty six and giving you Stephen Batchelor’s translation again.
And there are some who injure themselves through the unmeritorious deeds of hanging themselves, leaping from cliffs and eating poisons and unhealthy food. So then the Geshe-la went for the commentary now again, and then his commentary goes on to say that some being afflicted by negative conceptions and emotions, then they they they again, they hang themselves or they jump off cliffs and they eat poison and, how do say, spoiled foods. And they engage in all kinds of non meritorious activities that are the causes for the for them being reborn in in the lower realms. And then if they and and then in this way, destroy, they harm themselves, not only in this life, but also in in all future lives. And then if they can do that to themselves, then there is a how to say?
Yeah. So So So there there is this so then they say, if they can if they can do that to themselves, then there is no reason for us it isn’t unreasonable for us to get angry with these these people when they harm us. So then, yeah, Gela is translating to colloquial the next verse, which is verse thirty seven, which explains which is the verse that refers to the second division, which is if due to lack of understanding one can kill even oneself, it is no surprise that they can harm others. So this is the topic, and then from this topic we get into the verse. Again, I’ll read to you is if, when under the influence of disturbing conceptions and emotions, people will even kill their treasured selves?
How can they be expected not to cause harm to the bodies of other living beings? So then then Gela went into the commentary again, and he says some people being overwhelmed by negative by afflictive emotions and conceptions, they disregard their own bodies and disregarding them their their own lives, they they kill themselves. So that being the case, how to say, it is if they how to say? So it unreasonable for us to expect of these people that that that they would that they would not harm others, other bodies. So then we go into the third division, which is, therefore, it is reasonable to feel compassion for them.
Them refers to the people that were quoted in the first two verses, previous two verses. Then we got into the verse number thirty eight, which is, even if I cannot develop compassion for all such people who through the arrival of disturbing conceptions and emotions set out to try and kill me and so forth, the last thing I should do is to become angry with them. So, Gela briefly explains that we should we should try to meditate on compassion. But even if if we cannot give rise to compassion to these people, then at the very least, we should not get angry with them. And then because getting if we get angry with them, then it’s really, really bad.
Then Gala went for the for the the commentary. So he says, is that if that that being so, how do say, those beings that were mentioned before who are overwhelmed by by afflictive emotions and conceptions, when when they harm when they harm others, then if we when they harm others and when they try even to to kill ourselves and so forth, if we can give rise to to compassion, then that’s very good. But if we cannot even when we try to give rise to compassion and we cannot, then at at at the very least, we should not get angry with them. And then the text says because anger is is something extremely unreasonable. So so we get into the now now we get into the second division of cultivating patience that pays no heed to those who cause harm.
So, the first was meditation and compassion. Then the second division is arresting the causes of anger. Okay, and this one has three parts to it. So the first one is, it is unreasonable to be angry, how do say, with a child or childish people if it is in their nature to lack understanding and act in such ways. Then the second part is, again, if we if the conditions that brought harm are adventitious, it is unreasonable to be angry.
And then the third part says that by examining the direct and indirect causes, one understands that being angry is unreasonable. Okay? So okay. So then we get we get into the okay. The first the first part, which is, how do you say, is unreasonable to be angry with with childish with people people who are like like children or childish people, if it isn’t their nature, to lack understanding and so forth.
So the verse verse thirty nine reads something like, even if it were the nature of the childish to cause harm to other beings. So Geshe-la is explaining this. The childish refers to everybody who is not an ārya being, a superior being, so or or any ordinary being like like ourselves, Okay? So then the the verse goes on to say that it would be still incorrect to be angry with them, for this would be like being angry, begrudging fire for having the nature to burn. And again, I say so just just as we should not get angry with fire because it’s it’s the nature of the fire to burn, then we shouldn’t get angry with those kind of people because it’s in their nature to because they because of lack of understanding and so forth, it’s in their nature to to to hurt or to get angry and so forth.
So yes. Okay. So and then the the commentary goes on to say that those those beings who who, not knowing what is to be abandoned and what is to be adopted., And those that even knowing that when they are overwhelmed being overwhelmed by by afflictive emotions and conceptions, they are they are like children. They’re childish. So those those beings that that harm others, how to say, it is not alright to get angry with them because it will be just like getting anger with fire, which has with fire for for having the nature of burning.
So, yeah, that’s not alright. So now we get into the second division of the second part of the topic, which is, again, if the conditions that brought harm are adventitious, it is unreasonable to be angry. So saying that, we get into verse forty, and it goes something like, and even if the even if the faults were temporary and those who are by nature reliable, it would still be incorrect to be angry, for this would be like begrudging space for allowing smoke to rise in it. Okay? Then, yeah, again, I briefly briefly commented he briefly commented there was one one short word here that refers to to just the open space.
And then how do you say, if there is no there’s no getting angry with space for for allowing smoke to to get into it, so we don’t get angry with space because of that, So we shouldn’t get angry with those with those people also that are just temporarily afflicted and acting this way. Just we know that they are acting this way just temporarily. They are not like that. So, So the text goes on. So how do you say?
To those towards toward those people that in which thoughts arise, how to say, adventitiously, but that we know that they have a good nature and stable, reliable nature. So, when thoughts arise on them, when disadvantageous false arise on them, then we should not get angry with them. It will be unreasonable to get angry with them. Just like just like it is unreasonable to get angry again with space, with the open space for for allowing smoke to come into it. This one.
So Then we get into the third topic, which is by examining the direct and indirect causes, one understands that being angry is unreasonable. And then the text goes on to say, if someone says that it is alright to get angry with with someone who causes harm, and then we we get into the next verse, which is verse forty one. And if if I become angry with welder, although I am I am actually harmed by his stick, then since he too is secondary, being turned incited by hatred, I should be angry with his hatred instead. Then Gela says that the verse is is what the verse is telling us is that there are three besides the the person who is beating us with the stick, there is the stick, and there is the anger that is making his act in such a way. So we should not get angry with the person alone.
I mean, we should get angry with his anger, with the anger that is afflicting him, and also we should get angry with the stick. So then Gela was reading and explaining the the commentary, and it says that the direct cause of of how to say? If we get if we if we get angry at the direct cause of harm, which is, for example, the stick or a weapon and so forth, then Then then if we say that it is alright to get angry at those direct causes, right, for for for delivering harm onto us, then we we Then then we we are investigating. We see that those those objects do not have independence or will of their own. They are being, how to say, manipulated by a being, a sentient being, a person in this case.
So then if we get, how to say then if we get angry at this person, then we and we start investigating, then we also see that this person also does not have any independence because he’s being overwhelmed by anger and other afflictive emotions and so forth. So the both of them are being how to say do do not have any independence. Okay. So then if there is anything that we should get angry at, then that is to anger itself, the afflictive emotion of anger itself. Okay, okay.
Then we get into a third division, which called reflecting that unwanted occurrences are due to one’s own fault. Right? This has two parts to it, the actual meaning of the title, and then the second part of it, which is refuting objections. Okay? So then, yes, then the the first the first topic, which is the actual meaning, has has five parts to it.
The so Gela was reading and explaining each one of these topics. So the first one is reflecting on the harm brought on you by another as one’s own fault. Okay? Then the disadvantage of having taken a body, which is the cause of suffering or a cause of suffering. Then seeing the fault of having grasped at the causes of suffering in previous lives, okay, then as as as it is one’s own karma that presses others into bringing suffering upon us, it is unreasonable to be angry with them.
And then the fifth and last one, anger itself is wrong, it’s erroneous, and thus, it is unreasonable. Okay? Okay. Okay. So so then the first of those topics, which is, how do say, reflecting on the harm brought on you by another as one’s own fault.
Okay? Then that was mentioned. Then we get into the verse forty two, which goes something like, previously, I must have caused similar harm to other sentient beings. Yes. And then, therefore, it is right for this harm to be returned to me who is the cause of injury to others.
Los. So, yeah, Gala says having thought of our previous lives and having thinking that in the past lives we have done similar harm to what we are experiencing right now, then we should think, this harm that I’m receiving right now, it it is it is alright. It is just fair. We should think, and then we should not get angry with the person, Gela says. So then the commentary goes on to say pretty much what Gela has said before that by having by having, in the past, in previous lives, having caused such harms upon upon others, then then now when when others harming me, harming oneself, so we should one should think that this it is alright.
One should think, oh, it’s alright for this to be happening to me when when you feel in this way. And then and I just meditate on patience. So then we go to the next topic of the the actual meaning of of reflecting on the how to say, that unwanted occurrences are due to one’s own faults. Right? So then this the disadvantage of having taken a body which is the cause of suffering, which is a cause of suffering.
Right? And then we get into the root verse forty three, which goes something both the weapon and my body are the causes of my suffering. Since he gave rise to the weapon and I to the body, with whom should I get angry? And then Gela goes on to comment that in order to experience this suffering coming from from the weapon, in this case, from from a certain weapon, then there must be a body also. So if if the person who is being harmed by the weapon is getting angry the weapon, he should also get angry with with with his body and with himself because without the presence of all these conditions, there is no suffering coming about.
Okay. So then that yeah. Just as as Gela had explained, commentary goes based on this reasoning, So having having having the other person giving giving rise to the weapon and oneself giving rise to the body and then have needing both the weapon and the body to to as as the causes of suffering. Right? In this way, So so in this way, when we experience suffering, this suffering, it is it is not alright to get angry only with the weapon or the person who is holding the weapon.
We should also get angry with with the body. If if if one is to get angry, one should should also get angry with the body. And then And then we get into the next verse, which is verse forty four, which reads, if in blind attachment I cling to this suffering-abscess of a human form, which cannot bear to be touched, with whom should I be angry when when it is hurt? So then Gela is explaining the commentary on this last verse which is saying this this body, which is like this human body, which is like an abscess, which cannot stand to be touched, and is experiencing which which is, how do say, which which is experiencing all kinds of sufferings of being burned and hurt and so forth. And this So then and then so, yeah, having this body and then and then by force of ignorance and and having one’s wisdom eye blinded, then one how to say?
One as Ganai explains, one engages in So one one engages in in in harmful actions and so forth. And and that being so, if this is the case with those those people, right, who should I good who should I get angry with? We should all we should all think Yeah. We should think that this is this is my own fault. We should think.
This one. Is this clear? It’s okay? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Outside. Yes. Can somebody get me an empty glass, please? So we get into the first talk third topic, which is seeing the fault of having grasped grasped at at the causes of suffering in previous lives. And then we follow into the verse forty five, which goes something like, it is the fault of the childish that they are hurt.
For although they do not wish to suffer, they are greatly attached to its its causes. So why should they be angry with others? And then Gela explains briefly that childish refers again to all those people who are not ārya beings, ordinary beings like us and and so forth. Yes. So then we go into the commentary which says all these childish beings who do not wish suffering, but then having engaged in killing and so forth, which are having having engaged and grasped at this cause of suffering, which are killing and so forth, then having done so in previous lives, they disregarding they have disregarded the causes of such deeds.
And then now when these causes arise, how do you say, we shouldn’t get angry at others. We should we should see that it is only our fault, Luz. So then we follow on to the next verse, which is verse forty six. It goes something like, just like the guardians of the hell realms and the forest of razor sharp leaves, which Gela mentions is a neighboring hell, so this suffering produced by my actions. With whom, therefore, should I be angry?
Yes. Yes. So then, again, I went to the commentary, which says, for example, the guardians of again, the guardians of hell and then and then the forest of of razor sharp leaves and so forth. So have a reason They do not arise. They were not born because of suffering that one is experiencing was not born because of others.
It is one’s karma. So, again, I say, on top of of the health and everything, every every suffering, every disease, every sickness, and and and and and every, how to say, painful experience we we have, they all have risen by force of our karma. And then so we we don’t get angry. If we don’t get angry to this Okay. Okay.
So then if we if we don’t get angry, not getting angry with those things, then likewise Then talk about the same thing. Life, which which came about by force of our own karma, and all the sufferings that we experience in this life that came about by the force of our own karma, we should not get angry because because they came about by the force of our own karma, we should not get angry with with anyone. So then all those all these being only one’s own fault, we have to strive in the future to abandon the causes of suffering. So so then the fourth topic, which is as it is one’s own karma that presses others into bringing suffering upon us, it is unreasonable to be angry with them. Okay?
So it’s the the fourth topic. Then we go to the root verse forty seven, and then it goes something like having been instigated by my own actions or and can I, yeah, emphasize the aspect of karma? So having been instigated by my own karma, those who cause me harm those who cause me harm come into being. If by these actions or by this karma of oneself, Geshe-la explains, they should fall into hell, then surely surely isn’t it I who am destroying them, those those other beings? And then explains that we should understand that this we we are causing other beings to to to fall into hell realms and so forth.
Then, Gela, is just explaining the the commentary. Then so by being impaled by by the force of of negative karmas negative karma accumulated, let’s say, but but karma, how to say, of the karma no virtuous karma, okay, that was accumulated the one has accumulated in in previous lives. Then in this life, one how do you say? In this one life of ours, a lot of beings will cause us harm. And then, again, I explained briefly that so because we have done harm before, now we inevitably are going to experience this harm coming back to us.
And then understanding that understanding that we shouldn’t we we shouldn’t get angry with them. It’s not alright to get angry with those people and so forth. So then So then again, I explained, and then we have done harm in previous lives. Now we’re experiencing this harm by by by these people causing us harm we are experiencing. We we are, I’d say, getting back onto us the harm that we have caused.
But then because these people are causing us harm, then they are accumulating the causes to be reborn in hell, and we are causing also we are also the cause of their fall. So the root of all of this suffering, Gela says, lies on us alone. Okay. Then the next verse I’m sorry. We get into the the the fifth topic, which is also the last one of many.
Anyway, so anger itself is wrong or erroneous and thus, it is unreasonable. That’s that’s the the name of the topic. Okay? So then we get into the verse straight on verse forty eight and forty nine. So ask Gela to explain to me verse forty eight first.
First, don’t it goes something like this. I didn’t I didn’t get anyone’s translation, so I’m gonna translate it literally for you here. And then it goes something like according to Gela’s explanation, goes something like this. Meditating, how do you say, on patience, cultivating patience towards those beings, right, having those beings that harm us, having them as a basis for my meditation on patience, then all the negativities will diminish, Okay? Then having having myself as a basis, all those beings that cause oneself harm, they they stay they experience the suffering of hell for a very long time.
Okay. Okay. Then the next verse, which is verse forty nine, goes something like this. I myself have caused harm to those other beings. In fact, I myself have caused harm to those other beings, and they have, in fact, benefited me.
Again, I explained it’s been we have caused harm because when they when they harmed us out of when they are harming us, they are accumulating the causes to go to hell realms and so forth, but they were impelled by our own past karma to do this harm for us. And then and then so in the end, we are harming those beings. And then those beings, in fact, have benefited myself, refers to the fact that they are giving us the chance to practice patience. And yes, practice patience. Then So then This is a Oh, okay.
Okay. So this is a this is not a faulty reasoning. This is not an erroneous reasoning, it says in the text. And then because of my own because of my own, how do say, evil evil mind, bad mind, and then this all this happened. Mhmm.
The Mhmm. And then I should not I should not get angry. That’s the meaning of the Okay. Then the commentary goes on very much like what what Gela has said before. So, therefore, those beings which are which are the basis of one’s meditation on patience, Meditating on those beings on patience, yes.
Meditating on those beings, then my negativities will diminish. Having them as a basis for my meditation, my negativities will diminish. And then, so then, and having myself as a basis, those beings end up experiencing the sufferings of hell and so forth for a very long time. So Okay. So then then the text goes on to say that I am in fact, oneself is the enemy of those of those people who causes harm.
And then those people So then those people, in fact, they bring us only benefits. They only benefit us in the end, ultimately. And then it is wrong to get angry with them. We should we should it is wrong to get habituated with being angry with them. We should instead generate a liking for these people.
And that is a reasonable thing to do. So by this, my question? Yes? Can so sorry. Can you repeat your question again, please?
Mhmm. Because the beings that cause us harm often may end up in the hell realms because of that. Yes. So in effect, we cause their cause them to be there. Lose.
Do we then carry any negative karmic imprints because of that? Loss loss. Okay. So So then Gela says, In fact, no. At that time, when the these people are harming us, we we are not accumulating negativities.
In fact, they are based having us as a basis for their actions, then they accumulate negativities, although we don’t accumulate negativities. And then because of those negatives they have accumulated having us as a basis, then they end up in hell. Okay. Can patience be a purification practice? Depending on depends on depends on your motivation, if if you meditate in on emptiness in in order to to clear away these these past negativities, purify these negativities, and then, yeah, it it can work as a it can work in this manner It says that there are many, many kinds of meditations on patience, meditations.
And then, for example, there is a meditation on patience on the in regard to the people who harm ourselves, you know, then not to get angry with those people. And then in regards also to to to any other kinds of suffering and not to get angry with those causes of suffering and so forth. So there are many kinds of meditation on patience, he says. Patience or meditation? Patience.
Yes. Patience. Yes. Yes. So it’s got to be built into a you know, it’s got it’s got to be part of a it has to have the intentions.
The practice of patience on a daily basis doesn’t necessarily purify unless it’s part of a practice. I’m not sure if I’m conveying the meaning right to Geshe-la, but but what he said was was like this. So he said I asked him, so is there is there a benefit to purifying negativities, past negativities? He said maybe he didn’t understand exactly what I’m saying. He said, no.
There there is sure benefit in terms of negativities, in relation to negativities because then if meditate on patience you won’t generate anger and then you won’t generate new negativities, right? But then he said that, and I asked, what about the past negativities? And he said, oh, those also, when you are practicing Dharma, then you meet with a lot of hardships, but if you meditate on patience in relation to those hardships, you know, then this meditation on patience is going to help go through these hardships and this going through the arising of these hardships are due to the path negativity. So you’re also in this way purifying those those past negativities. Do you understand?
Yeah. So he says if you don’t have patience in everything, every activity you engage in, it’s going to be very difficult. And actually, I forgot to mention one thing. He mentioned also particularly the practice of confession, Shagpa, confession. And then, for example, when you you’re practicing confession to purify these past negativities, then you’re going to meet with a lot of physical pain and so forth.
And then if you have patience towards those sufferings that are arising, then, you know, you can bear with it. That’s what he said there. Okay. No more questions? Yes.
Lunch. Lunch. Okay. This is a in the teaching section, page twenty four. Twenty four.
Four. Twenty four. Twenty four. Okay.