Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 70-minute biographical interview, Khensur Rinpoche — recorded just two months after arriving in Australia for his first Western residency — recounts the sequence of events that brought him West: his unexpected appointment as abbot of Sera Monastery, which overrode earlier plans to teach at a British center, and the consultations and divinations that finally redirected his path to Australia. The conversation ranges across Tibetan history, touching on the destruction of Darge Monastery across several decades and the bodhicitta lineage traced through the eleventh-century Indonesian master Serlingpa and the great monument at Borobudur. The session closes with Rinpoche’s candid first impressions of Australian society — its personal freedoms, welfare system, and rising drug problems — set against comparisons to life in India and Tibet.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 36 RS 1988 11 17.mp3
UUID: 532c2582-3d38-4068-97b9-365b00024e1b
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1988-11-17
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 70.7 minutes
Words: ~3,727
Nine ten. This is Thursday, the seventeenth of November nineteen eighty eight, and I’m going to Buddha House to talk some more with Khensur Rinpoche, with Dawa translating. Oh. Is it only worn by Abbott? Sadly gift.
You don’t have the person to generate bodhicitta quickly. Yeah. Quickly. Is bodhicitta a short form for?
Yes. And is short form for. In the past, great masters who got full control in bodhisattva, such masters like Lama Suvarnadvipi guru, Lama Serlingpa. Indonesian? From whom in traditional teaching we say the first lineage of bodhicitta came through.
Indonesian? Yeah. It’s called Suvarnadvīpa. That’s why Indonesians have all those, you know, those big monuments. Yeah.
Walked apart. Yeah. There’s one famous Indonesian lama. Really? Yeah.
From home, and they used to wear those, yeah, those hats. Oh. That’s interesting. Mhmm. Because, you know, that that mask Borobudur.
Borobudur. Yeah. Alright. I’ve never been there. Yeah.
That’s the whole structure where they have this plane. It’s called Borobudur. Yeah. Heard all about it. That’s in Java, isn’t it?
Yeah. I’ve only been to Bali. Mhmm. It’s more Hindu. Mhmm.
Cool. And I think went there the previous year, was it? So he was there for only one year? About a year. A few months.
Yeah. Does he know when it was rebuilt again? The Chinese officer who was responsible for the destruction was called. How would you how would you spell that? Normally in English would be the, but that’s the only choice we got.
It’s called the Tong. We’ve got — put D h e because in English, they’ll say. Does it have his position there? What was what was his position? The in the in in in the so We just say army head, the chief.
Army head or chief? Lieutenant? No. Probably like a colonel or a general, please. And, also, while we’re talking about army, can you can you spell spell the name of the Tibetan army, the guerrilla army?
I can’t hear it properly. Chu Shi, c h u C h u. Gang. Same word together. Gang?
Gang. Yeah. Chu Shi Gang. Chu Shi Gang, d r u g. D r u g.
Land of four — no. Of six ranges — oh, four. No. Land of the six ranges. It’s, I think, probably describing the warriors of Tibet, that book.
Oh. And in there, says funny, doesn’t it? In the preface, he says — well, I haven’t got the Warriors of Tibet. Is it in the preface? Because I looked through the whole book and I couldn’t see the term, I didn’t actually look in the preface.
No, this one I think is not in the preface. In the preface he says a little bit funny about it. Names of Chinese officers saying that when he was listening this story, they just remembered Chinese by their rank and don’t know So all the person names we just take as assumptions. It could be same as this one. I see.
Right. Yeah. Could be. Tong, Tong, Tong. Not that wrong.
No, Tong, Tong, in The they were all home. So the first time Mao said the Chinese came to Rinpoche’s hometown was in nineteen thirty four. Oh, was it? Yeah. Right.
First time? Yeah. First time. First time in the sense Chinese, Nationalist Chinese. First time, the Chinese came.
Oh. In that. The destruction of Darge Monastery was perhaps in nineteen thirty nine. There’s no Yeah. That’s right. It started from thirty one, nineteen thirty one.
And when so for about nine years, there was nothing. Not. This thirty nine must be when they started rebuilding. And in mid sixties. Yeah?
Perhaps sixty two, sixty three. Even the even Oh, the Cultural Revolution started? No. Even could have been destroyed in sixty two, sixty three. Yeah.
Yeah. You first of all, you said seventy. Yeah. Did you mean seventy? Yeah.
Now he’s thinking, oh, be even after sixty six. Yeah. So yes. Yes. Happened in sixty two, sixty three then?
What happened at that period? Destruction came a bit later. And in the east part of Tibet, it should have been behind it. But still, it’s not just a guess work. They didn’t receive any news out of Tibet at that time, did they?
Not not at all because nobody was allowed to go out and come in, and it only started after eighty eight, one eighty two. News started coming out. And he really didn’t hit anything up until that time. So all the things Rinpoche heard about his family and about different like that that Geshe that looked after the protector. That was all he heard that all much later in the eight nineteen eighties.
I’ve been reading this, but I think maybe if we could spend some time, you know, on the five preliminaries. There’s only five in this. Is that Yeah. On on the what I call four more, but that’s the old preliminary. Right.
That’s right. So should we just list the other four in his story, or what should we do? What are the other four? In the case if he has any cross mention about that, then perhaps otherwise, just me. Or or in the case where he says, because he has been asked to do teaching instead of the work.
Sure. And he has not he has done donation for book printing instead of sculpture. So in that case, we can put it into forty nine. You can put it into So all all I need to know is what they are. The That’s right.
The other what would so what are they? This what’s the sixth one then? Sixth one is seven one. No. The sixth one is called but the order is quite well called.
Yeah. Flexible. Yeah. That’s what want. So sixth oh, we can have it after after this is.
Yeah. The sixth one is normally called bhumpa. Bum pao. Bhumpa. B h u m p a.
And the sixth one, is it? Seventh one. Seventh one is called Visualization and Recitation. Samayavajra. Samaya v a j r a.
And the next one is called — it’s normally called water pot [tsok chen] in English, but it’s literally called outer [initiation]. The last one is called tsa tsa, that is, tsa tsa printing. You can wonder how much these you know. Mhmm.
And they’re the little clay? Yeah, the clay ones. Tsa tsas, any small tsa tsas. Some in the house. And in other parts of the world, together, they do it in the water or the rivers. That’s right.
Just dip it and take it out and dip it into it. But Rinpoche would have had to have made them from a mould. Yeah. That’s right. From mould.
So started down here as a mentions. Donated He donated five hundred rupees to print one of Tsongkhapa’s masterpiece works. That’s Right. Because I I got some of those little statues in in the monastery near Chakpuri in the cave in Songtsen Gampo’s cave. They were making all these Tsongkhapa little little ones.
They’re very fragile. Like, they can crumble very easily. As strong as cement, but still, yeah, it’s not too bad. Well, no. It’s good because I’ve still got and that’s traveled around with me, and they’re still fairly good.
No. And I wish them the standards. I know. Don’t you know, pottery, they fire it in the kiln. They don’t fire these, do they?
They just make them. They just leak. No. They no. Because No.
No. I didn’t think so. Look like. Mhmm. So what do they do?
What what usually happens to them all? There’s so many of them. They just give to people. A separate house, a gyim [chum].
They build a separate house for it, for the home. A house like one — make houses and into which they put it and it becomes like a normal house. And then people make circumambulation rounds around it and consider it very precious. Oh. So I’m not sure with does yours end here with my copy, or have you got more?
No. That’s it. That’s it. So No, sir. The five ones.
You’re laughing. For for Rinpoche’s book, what would be really good and what you suggested before is to just get a little bit more details about his actual retreat. Mhmm. Like, I think it wasn’t Sera, but who cared for him and what was the daily routine and just how he managed for the three years. Because Westerners don’t know anything.
Mhmm. So it’d be interesting to get some more detail. Well, I didn’t think we had very much, but tell him that if he if he likes, I’ll bring I’ll bring that in another day. But I didn’t think it’s a great deal of detail. Remembers about having talked.
Right. Well, tell them to show there’s just about three tapes that I haven’t gone through yet. Mhmm. So it must be on those until they won’t go through that again, and then I’ll come and ask him. Mhmm.
But, yeah, there’s only about three that I haven’t haven’t transcribed, so it must be on that one. Telling my mom, mom, forgot. That’s fine. I don’t know how to say it to us at all. I didn’t know.
Someone said the COVID, the heart more than we start. Oh. And if there is in Denver, Michigan Denver can get more detail. Yeah. That’s good.
Good. There’s another question. Why I’m sorry. Australia now for nearly one and a half years. Mhmm.
I think people would really like to hear sort of more of his feelings about the Western world and his impressions about and and So what what about western? So in turn, we have to say well, we have to specify the context. So I’m saying, Rinpoche will have to say what his opinions, impression about western society. So I have to say society to make it clear. So Rinpoche says, what what aspect of society?
Political or religious? Well, I guess I’m really wanting all aspects because if we get I’m thinking of trying to get a publisher, a Western publisher to do Rinpoche’s biography. If not, then we’ll try someone like that. Will want to know this is very interesting for an educated person from another culture. Mhmm.
And they just would probably really want to know all of these aspects, really, how how he feels about them. Mhmm. I yeah. Tell him when I went for a radio interview a little while ago, and I said that I was working on the life story of a Tibetan lama. They said, oh, please would he come into our radio station and I said he could talk about the history of Tibet, but no, no.
They wanted, please could he give the impressions of of being here in Australia, being here in the west? Mhmm. That’s what all they want him to come and talk about. No. But but Tell Rinpoche I was would did some translating with Junker about I think at first, Rinpoche was going to go to Britain.
Wanted him to go to Britain to because and then he couldn’t because he became abbot. But they were very happy. They wanted him to go there because he was very good at teaching westerners. Mhmm. So I tell Rinpoche, he must have some good understanding to to establish a good relationship like that with western students.
What did you say? You should tell me your translator. No. You didn’t say Mhmm. You know, in nineteen eighty two, Namgyal told that Delhi is very important place to have a good teacher to teach in local Indians and westerners on transit from one place to another.
Mhmm. So they asked Rinpoche. It’s very important place. So when you place a station, Rinpoche said, oh, in summer, it would be difficult, but I would stay for winter. So Rinpoche stayed there for for six for six months.
And after when when the term was finishing, Rinpoche started trying to move down to Sera. But before that happened, and they came and requesting him to and they continue to stay there or to kindly go as a teacher to one of the centers. And In the west? Yeah. In the west.
And they I had a talk and I have a tea party of which this picture came. That’s with a photo? Yeah. Uh-huh. And then Rinpoche said, and then I will go as a teacher who will visit from one center to another on on the time of visiting.
On the circuit? Yeah. On the circuit. Or or I will just go to a very big center. And they said, oh, in that case, you can go to Mañjuśrī Centre because that’s a very big centre.
Then but then Rinpoche said, first of all, ask one of the attendants of His Holiness that I know was passing by, commenting daily. And Rinpoche said, I will ask one of them and see what they say. Tell us. So did a mo with one of them, and they in that state said, oh, it’s very good. Very good.
You should go. So and then took some photos of possible future forms and went down to Sera. And when he came down to Sera, he was appointed as abbot. So he wasn’t expecting. He wasn’t expecting that to happen in Sera.
Yes. The monks start voting, and they voted. The first candidate who got the most of the votes was Geshe-la and Rinpoche was second. Somehow, he saw next in the line over what I call selected. Normally, call appoint appointed. That’s the one who shouldn’t be the abbot.
Mhmm. And, also, Rinpoche’s passport hasn’t been processed. So Rinpoche had had to accept that appointment, and he just, you know, stop worrying about the whole process. Even before that, when was in, after he finished giving transmission of those And then he was asked, requested to stay as a resident teacher at the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives and to teach. But at that point, he had so many students down in Sera who were more desperate.
So he said no. I couldn’t. I have to go down and teach them these scriptures. That’s more important than I can to stay here. In the Library?
In the Library. Mhmm. Mhmm. He thought maybe because when he was about and he started building a new school, at that time, was what called? All the school was donate given a donation of one hundred thousand Indian rupees by.
What? By. So. Serkong Rinpoche has been, what I call, good in contributing that financial help. So perhaps this time when he requested Rinpoche in return to do something for him.
So remember, he thought maybe it’s not good to turn down the request. So And in the beginning, we got several from FPMT and London. They were requesting Rinpoche to stay for three years. Rinpoche said, oh, that’s not possible. I’ll perhaps stay for one year.
And it came down to Rinpoche accepting to stay for one year in the west. And after accepting that, somehow Rinpoche had to go to Dharmasala and see His Holiness. In one of the audiences, Rinpoche told His Holiness that he had accepted to stay for one year in the west. The first request was to to stay for three years. And then His Holiness said, no.
Yeah. Perhaps you should stay two years. Oh. Good. And then in March nineteen eighty eight, Rinpoche went to Nepal and went to all the local pilgrimage places.
After that, Rinpoche went to the local Kopan and taught there to all the monks, including the head director, Lama Pende. Yeah. He taught there up till September of, nineteen eighty eight. After four, eighty eight, Rinpoche went down to Delhi and then through Singapore, he arrived in Australia on the tenth of September. Australia is the only western country Rinpoche has been.
And in Australia arriving here, Rinpoche formed a family what I call the country referring to more as environmental build up or formation or environmental situation. Very good. Very good, good, what I call, set up of the country. And the cities like Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Adelaide, Tasmania, know, the country looks good. The appearance of the country Yeah.
And the cities. Yeah. I was saying, and people are not very well managed. And unlike, you know, in Tibetan, India, there aren’t very many teams and crimes. I said there are a lot.
You said there are a lot. Just different. Just tell him different. Yeah. Where is over there?
Yes. Only we have to, yeah, lock. Yes. Now what wouldn’t you say? Are there a lot or not?
I just think it’s all different somehow. I mean, there are some people that do pick your pockets in the city. Mhmm. But there’s not not like India where it’s all the time, you know, If you leave your wallet Mhmm. You know, and maybe one person in a hundred here might lose it from his pocket.
But in India, if you’re silly enough to walk around with money, then somebody will take it for sure. In the situations, if you leave a thing there the facilities in the west are is very good. And all the people seem to have a fairly what I call fairly good You have freedom in this sense. You have choice to do so many things. Oh.
No. Yeah. No restrictions. And, Like, if you go across, say, across across the road, and everybody has to obey the traffic rules and the lines, and nobody can do anything as long as you follow that. Yes.
Nobody can restrict you. Mhmm. And we’re good we’re covering good in having enough things to eat, to eat, to like, there there aren’t any beggars hanging around. And everybody, to some level, don’t really have to worry about not having enough to eat and drink and weave. Yeah.
To Rinpoche, there are people who have no homes. There are a few homeless ones and there are old people. But they’re they’re not so obvious as in India. Mhmm. But ask Rinpoche, has he ever been around I forget that square.
Is it like lights? Whitmore Square. Is that the one? Yeah. With all the salvation up.
Oh, yeah. It’s But still, the welfare system looks after them Yes. Provide free food, free house, and that’s very good. And also from religious side, freedom to practice whatever you like. Christian Christianity, Hindu, Buddhism.
You can do whichever you like. That’s Rinpoche thinks very good. Does Rinpoche see that freedom in India too? So it’s also in India. Yeah.
And now it’s not into bed. Not at the moment. Yeah. From a verbally Chinese state, there is freedom of religion. But in actual fact, it is just the reason.
So far, Rinpoche So far, Rinpoche, I haven’t been to so many big shopping centers, factories, and department And you’re sure you’re And also, all around big what I call education institutions like schools, universities. Whenever passing, somebody points, oh, that’s the university. That’s the university. That’s the school. But I only said the outside.
Oh. So interested to see more? Beggars and the thieves, was he talking just about India, or was he also referring to Tibet? I wasn’t sure. So that’s talking about present Present.
Present Tibet. But she hasn’t been in present Tibet in any can hear. You can hear things like the religious freedom. I see. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. But the that was they would have been there before. There are in rough areas, Rinpoche is saying. So it’s quite a difficult, what I call, borderline to draw. Mhmm.
And there is an isn’t. If you say isn’t, there is. If there is, it’s not that too many to say there is. It’s it’s also the same here. Because people are saying Hindley Street in the city is getting worse and worse and rougher and rougher, you know, and it’s not safe now to walk down there.
Really? Mhmm. Yeah. In Australia, maybe in the countryside or somewhere away if there is a house where the owner goes out for ten, twelve days. Nobody breaks in.
Usually, they wouldn’t. Uh-huh. But it could happen. Over there, if you leave one day, it could be storm. Mhmm.
See, when we lived up in the hills, we would never lock our car. And we’d never lock our house. But now even though our house is being sold, Bruce locks it now because there’s a little bit more people driving around, and he’s afraid it mightn’t be safe. So even in this few years, Yeah. It does.
I I think I think some friends of Lolo’s, you know, Luc Cifarelli’s Lolo, they had their house was burgled. Mhmm. They had things taken. But that was very strange because they went there sometime when they knew neither Lama Cherel or his wife were there. So it could be someone that knew.
Well, somebody who knows the place. Yeah. I think. Mhmm. And see, when I was growing up, there was hardly any drugs in Australia, hardly any drugs around now.
There’s so many heroin addicts and different drug addicts. Mhmm. And people are desperate to get that. It might cost a hundred dollars to get a little hit, so they have to steal. And when they’re high on drugs, then they’ll do more things.
That’s right. The worst can do the worst thing. Worse sort of people will do the worst sort of things. Yeah. And work on the drugs and the drug addicts, and we just don’t have very much thing to do and hang around.
Soon, they just, you know, have to stay. Right. Okay. Oh, that might be Yes. It is difficult.
And also, while you’re here, tell Rinpoche I’d really like to go through all the teachings he’s received and the teachings he’s given just to get them clearer because I’ve made lists. So maybe next time too I’ll bring those. Yeah. He’s told. But I’d I’d really like to check while you’re here.
That’s right. Yeah. This is easier because it was very hard.