Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this two-hour session, Geshe Pema Tsering opens with a striking image: meditators who seal themselves in caves and survive on herb-broth, yet secretly hope that nearby villagers will speak of them as “that great meditator.” This portrait anchors a detailed commentary on abandoning the eight worldly concerns — gain and loss, pleasure and pain, fame and obscurity, praise and blame — with fame identified as the hardest to uproot. Geshe-la then unpacks the Kadampa geshes’ ten innermost jewels: the four aims (directing the mind to Dharma, embracing beggar-status, accepting death in retreat, dying alone in a barren place) and the three vajras of radical renunciation. The session closes with a Q&A on whether renunciation precedes compassion in the path, and a sustained philosophical exchange on the three types of suffering — specifically whether worldly happiness and the “suffering of change” are the same thing or merely overlapping categories.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 6. Day 3 AM Teaching.mp3
UUID: 22bf68e0-267a-400d-a365-9eb5ce601901
Teacher: Geshe Pema Tsering
Collection: z Teachings DTL (Geshe Pema Tsering)
Date: 2006 (exact day not recorded)
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 121.0 minutes
Words: ~7,413
Measurable and so forth. So then thinking in order to bring also into the state of enlightenment, one oneself must attain enlightenment, and then for that, one is going to then study listen to the teachings now. Like this, one gives rise to a good motivation. So then we we follow on when we stopped yesterday in the story of Guntangpa telling one particular monk to give up give up this life, and then we follow on to another story of of another called Shang Ngagpa. And and then he’s saying he he’s telling that every time he would see, he would ask Jowo Atisha for teachings, then Atisha would just tell him to give up this life and then or just meditate on loving kindness or compassion or meditate on on on the mind of enlightenment, and and he he would never say anything more than just such short sentences.
And then and then when he when he heard that, then he he was saying that even someone as as great as does not understand what it is to receive a teaching, which is like the very the very essence of all your instructions of of Jowo Atisha himself. And then later on in his life, then Geshe Geshe Shang himself Geshe Shang himself, he he used to say that in order to practice in order to practice Dharma, the most important thing is to give up this life. He he then he used to say that himself later on. Okay? So then then we we we follow on the text.
So text is telling us to to expand on this topic of giving up this life. Then to give up this life then means to give up the eight worldly concerns. Okay? So then if if we if we are to to talk extensively about it, about giving up this life, then we are gonna talk then we we will talk about abandoning the eight worldly concerns. If we are to talk about about about it briefly, then all these these eight worldly concerns can be sub can be subsumed under concern for food, clothing, and fame.
Okay? So then so then when we talk about abandoning giving up this life, we’re talking about abandoning these three concerns. And then the text is telling us that from amongst those three, food, clothing, and fame, the worst of of the worst of them is is fame. So then I guess I was reading for the text, which is then telling us that, again, of those three famous is the most difficult one is the worst is the worst of them. And then the text goes on to to explain that there are there are scholars, Panditas, and there are venerable ones, people who who who guard the morality very well, and there are great meditators that they they might who may even live, how to say, without much clothing, just with a few straps of clothes over their bodies, or or and and they they feed they feed themselves with peels made of made of herbs and and and the essence of flowers and and and so forth.
And and in this way, they they they go into caves and they, how to say, they attach their bags or they glue their bags into the the back of the cave and they they block the entrance of the cave with with stones and rocks and so forth. And then And then even though they do all that, they do all they go through all this this struggle, still in the very in the very depths of their minds, they have this this this wish that all the people in the in the in the nearby villages will be talking about them and referring to them as as that great meditator in the retreat, and then they have this this this very wish of of fame and and and renown in the very depths of their minds too. And then the text concludes there are many there are many scholars and panditas and and and fully ordained people with with perfect morality who who still deceive themselves in this way. Then this this this is because they weren’t able to to give up this life. It’s it’s very difficult to give up this life, she says.
So then even even though they might be able to give up, people might be able to give up food and drink and and and clothing, still, they wouldn’t be able to they were not able to give up the desire for fame and and renown. So then there’s a there’s actually quoting another saying from another who is And this is then saying that the the meditators who go into seclusion, and then they post a sign on their doors. And I guess I was just saying, so they they they write on top of the the entrance of the the retreat. They write, we are on retreat. Please make silence and so forth.
Don’t make any noise. And then and still, they live with the bare necessities, and they they meet not a soul wherever they are. And still these these great meditators, they they still have hopes in their minds to be called a great master meditator in in this very life still. And then and then still, everything they do, their minds at at how to say? Everything that that they do, their minds is they are always filled with all sorts of super superstitions.
And then in this way, the the whole of their spiritual practice goes to waste. And then his spiritual practice, all his spiritual practice then is carried away by these local thieves and bandits, which are these these superstitions these superstitious minds. And then so then the text so then this guess is then saying, so then one must then take a a spear and strike into every one of of those local bandits, which are then these these conceptions, the superstitions concerning of concern for this life. If if one how do you say? If one if one if one miss, at one point, if one miss a spear in one of those superstitions, in one of those concerns, then it doesn’t matter if one if one is a scholar, if I was gonna say, it doesn’t matter if one is a is a very learned person, doesn’t matter if one is a pandita, doesn’t matter if one is has keeps one’s morality very well, or if one if one is a is a meditates a lot.
It doesn’t matter what one does. If one is missing one of putting down these these worldly thoughts, concerns, then there’s nothing nothing will stop one from being born in the lower realms. Is telling us, talking to talking to us and say that we all we all meditate, we all practice Dharma, we all we all can give up a little bit of food, a little bit of clothing, but isn’t it hard to give up that that mind that thinks highly of of ourselves and praises ourselves for what we’re doing, isn’t it? So then we all we all we all make our make ourselves into noble ones by by by thinking and talking about how how we did the retreat and how how we did this and that. Isn’t it?
No. That’s that’s that’s probably not alright. Oh, yeah. And then there’s another Geshe. Geshe Gönpawa.
Geshe Gönpawa is then is then saying that one’s spiritual practice, one’s Dharma practice, all of one’s Dharma practice, if if it if it has been done for the sake of this life, then whilst whilst it has been done out of out of, how do you say, pride and and and and jealousy and anger and and and all these and all these desires, if then they they have increased instead, then they turned then into into the very causes of of saṃsāra, which are the which which is called the true origins themselves. And then and then if if one’s spiritual practice has has then increased these afflictions in this way, and one thinks to oneself that one is actually practicing Dharma, but that practice actually is is gonna carry one is gonna take one to the three lower realms. And then And then such a such a spiritual practice like this that carries on to the three lower realms is no different from from in the end, it is no different from having gone to the three lower realms by practicing only negativities themselves. So then if if Geshe-la is saying so then if if we are not able to give up this life, then it’s very difficult to turn our Dharma practice into actual Dharma practice.
And then the the text is quoting after that. It’s quoting from the the Precious Garland of Nāgārjuna. Nāgārjuna is then saying, oh, worldly wise, to gain or not, to feel good or not, to be renowned or not, to be spoken well of or not, these are the eight worldly thoughts. Quell them. Let them not come to your mind.
And briefly extending the explanation of these eight worldly thoughts, each one of them. So then one gains material things to be happy when one gains material things, to be unhappy when one does not gain material things, to be happy when one is is renowned, and to be, how to say, not happy when one is has no renown, to be happy when one is feeling good, and to be unhappy when one is not feeling good, to be happy when people are speaking good things about us, and to be unhappy when people are speaking bad things about us and so forth. Those are the eight worldly dharmas. It’s very difficult, isn’t it? So then when when people praise us, we we like, don’t we?
So when we get good food, we we like, don’t we? And even even when we are when we are not praised, even though we we might not we might we might not dislike it, we we still do not exactly like it. And the same with pleasure and pain. Every every pleasure that comes our way, we we like it. And then every little every little pain we experience, we we immediately make a big big, how to say, big thing about it, and then we we talk about being sick and ill and all that, and it’s a big problem, isn’t So then I said, but it is it is it is really no big deal when when when people when we when we people talk good things about us, say good things about us, and it it really is no big deal anyway.
If it is if if if they think that we did something good, then that’s okay. It doesn’t make any difference. And then if in the end we end up getting some good food, for example, then all the better we we can we can nurture our body and then practice Dharma for our sakes and for their sakes better in this way. And then again, if if we experience any pleasure, then again, you should we shouldn’t make a big deal out of it. Usually, we when we experience some some some pleasure we have some pleasurable experience, we we get we are proud of ourselves, and we are overtly happy and so forth, but we shouldn’t make a big deal of it.
We should understand instead that it is the result of virtue that has been performed in the past. And then in this way, we have to we can develop the wish to attain enlightenment for the sake of our sentient beings so that we can endow all sentient beings with just with the same happiness, with the same pleasurable experience as ourselves. And the same for painful experiences, I we shouldn’t make a big deal out of it. We should understand again that those painful experiences, they are the result of non-virtuous deeds that we have performed in the past. And in this way, again, we should develop the wish to take onto ourselves the pain of all sentient beings so that we can free all of them from such painful experiences as the one we are experiencing.
And then if one is able to act in this way, to think in this way, then one will be able to give up all this happiness for pleasurable experiences and unhappiness for painful experiences. One will be able to give up these worldly concerns. And then again, when when people as for renown and and and and and when people talk good things about us or praise us and when people do not praise us, it’s the same way. We have to apply the same principles to that. So then it doesn’t matter what people say about us.
If they say we are good, it doesn’t mean we are going to become good because they say so. If they say we are bad, we are not going to turn bad because they say so. If our being good and our improving and our practice all depends on on us practicing virtue ourselves, and it it doesn’t matter what what people say about us in the end. And again, for for people speaking well or ill of us, it doesn’t matter if people say that we have we have we are very learned and wise and we have great qualities, but because just by them saying that, we’re not going to become so. And then it doesn’t matter if they say we have big great faults, shortcomings because just by them saying that, we are not going to become someone with with these shortcomings.
It all depends again, it all depends on our practice. It all depends on our practice of virtue and avoidance of non virtue. So then and then we read we we read another verse from another lama, Togden Rinpoche, who is then saying the city of of samsaric superstitions and scary the wake-corpses of of eight worldly concerns. This is where you will find the most frightening burning ground of all. This is where you, lamas, should keep your midnight vigil among the dead.
And then Geshe-la is saying something that he’s he’s telling us again that if one is to practice Dharma, one has to abandon these eight worldly concerns. And then again and then again, the text itself is is is giving each one of the eight worldly concerns. Again, so being happy when we acquire something and unhappy when we don’t, being happy when we feel good and unhappy when we don’t, being happy when we become well known and unhappy when we don’t, being happy when someone speaks well of us and unhappy when someone speaks ill of us. So those are the eight world concerns. So the Geshe-la is the text is then telling us that those are the eight worldly dharmas, and then we we must quell them.
And then the word that was translated as as as quell, Geshe-la is explaining, it just mean means to have a sort of equanimous indifference towards them. And and if if one experiencing is experiencing happiness or pleasure, then it shouldn’t make any difference. If one is experiencing pain, it shouldn’t make any difference to oneself. And for each one of these pairs of eight worldly concerns, it shouldn’t make shouldn’t make no difference whatsoever. Okay?
But but it is not like that with us now, is it? We when when somebody speaks good things about us, then we we we we like it. We start liking it. And somebody when somebody speaks a little of us, then we we dislike it. We get angry and so forth.
So that’s that’s why we have to stop. So then when somebody speaks good things about us, then we we shouldn’t be too happy about it. And when somebody speaks ill of us, we shouldn’t get angry about it. Shouldn’t be angry about it. It’s very difficult to be to have this this this in in quite a most indifference about these were the concerns.
And then the text goes on to say that be be it scholars or or or venerable ones or or great teachers or meditators, whoever there is if if their Dharma practice is mixed with the eight worldly dharmas, then however deep the the religious practice may be, it it won’t be anything but just how do you say it? Empty how do say it? A hollow hollow how do you say? Empty empty water is a hollow sham. Was reading for the text, which is then telling us that it doesn’t it doesn’t make any difference if the teaching is the teaching of the, how do say, the great completion itself or the what is called the teachings.
If the person himself has not become himself greatly complete, it doesn’t make any difference. And then Geshe-la then added that, and he says it doesn’t matter if the teaching is a Mahāyāna teaching. If the person himself has not become a Mahāyāna person, then it won’t make any difference. And again, becoming a Mahāyāna person, then having having realized the mind of enlightenment and so forth. So then there there are many cases one can see many cases of of of people who talk about their who whose talk about the spiritual practice could would buy them a whole herd of horses, but the the person themselves is not worth a dog.
And then the text is telling us that religion or religious practice that is that is that is all words and is never put into practice is not different is is not different than a parrot’s talk. I guess I was gonna say, well, any anybody can can teach a parrot to say, but there’s no motivation there at all. And then and then the the the the text was on to tell us that that that person and and the practice, they are miles apart from each other. Then that person keeps on telling that talking about a great Dharma practice, but in fact, he’s not practicing any of it. So he’s the actual practice is so distant from from from his talk.
So the the text is telling us there’s one translation here which which I got from from that book exactly, which is telling us that just babbling about spiritual practice and never letting it sink in. It’s just like leaving it to bob around on the surface like some uncooperative vegetable in a soup. But then it’s interesting to see that the the the text itself is talking about babbling around about spiritual practice is like is like a lung’s meat that has been cooked. That’s what is being said here. So when you boil, when you when you cook the the lung meat, it becomes very unpleasant to eat. That’s why it’s just like that.
And then this one lama is telling that he teaches as the the very essence of of all practice. It is to give up this life. He teaches it to everybody, to all to all his students. So then, yeah, emphasizing the last part of the sentence where where this this this one lama is telling that he he he tells everybody, everyone that this is the very essence. This this should be the very essence of one’s Dharma practice, that they should be abandoning, giving up this life.
So then it’s it’s referring to every every sentient being, every every person. So then the text concludes that if one if one, how do you say, cannot does not give up this life, does not does not give up the the weight, the eight worldly concerns that has to do with the desire for this life, then leave aside not able to practice actual Dharma. It will be very difficult just to close the doors of lower realms. So then what is the main point of this teaching on the eight worldly concerns is that we should give up any desire for this life. So then whatever Dharma we are going to practice, we should practice with the motivation that is aiming at future lives, that is aiming at liberation and enlightenment and future rebirths.
We should never be thinking about aiming at this life. Okay? So then the text goes on to say that in order to quell these eight worldly concerns for the sake of practicing Dharma, then one has to abandon, give up this life whilst following the the the advice, the the the pith instructions of the Kadampa geshes, which is called the ten the ten innermost jewels or the ten innermost jewels of the Kadampa geshes. And I guess I was gonna say referring to these instructions of the Kadampa geshes, which is a very it’s very impressive. It’s very powerful, impressive, and also, Geshe-la says, a very difficult practice.
Then these ten innermost jewels, they are the four aims, the three diamonds or the three vajras, and and and then also the the three abandoning, reaching, and attaining. So then what are the the four aims? So then what are the four aims? The four aims are aiming the mind at the at the practice at the Dharma practice, aiming the Dharma practice at the beggar, and then aiming the beggar at death, and aiming death at a barren, dusty retreat. Okay.
And what’s the last one? Aiming death at a barren, dusty retreat. Something like that. Okay? And then the as the for the three vajras or the three diamonds, then there is sending the uncatchable or the unreachable diamond ahead of oneself, then laying the unashamed diamond behind oneself, and then keeping the wisdom diamond keeping company with the wisdom diamond or keeping keeping it by by at one one side.
Okay? And then as for the three which are abandoning or escaping or running away from, which is and then and then reaching and then attaining. They are abandoning the ranks of men, reaching the ranks of dogs, and attaining to the ranks of gods or deities. Thank you, certainly gentlemen, none of us is ready, is it? Wishes for any of this now, do we? Are not none of us is ready to these are being taught to us who are not actually wishing to to to have any of this.
We think that we are happy as we are right now. None of us wants to to abandon to to go away from from from the company we have of of other people. None of us wants to to keep company with dogs. If we if we were to then abandon give up comp the company of worldly people and then keep company with the dogs, the attaining is the third one that we would then attain to the state of of gods and then which which which means to attain liberation and enlightenment. So then we all we all need that last one, don’t we?
So then what is meant by the first one of the four aims, which is aiming the mind at at at Dharma practice, then it is it is explained to be thinking or reflecting about the fact that this now, at this time, that we have obtained this this precious human resources, very good basis for practice with with all these freedoms and these opportunities, which is very hard to find and is very meaningful, then now this this the only time that we have found it, and we have to understand that we’re not going to stay here for long, that death is certain, that the the time of death is uncertain, is unknown, and then that at at at the time of death itself, nothing but there’s nothing at all. There’s no objects or or wealth or any possessions. None none none of them is going to benefit us the least. Only the pure Dharma that we have practiced is going to be of benefit. So then in this way, thinking this way, then we have to practice Dharma.
So then this one this one the first one of the four aims, is then aiming the mind at Dharma practice, Geshe-la is saying, there’s a lot of contemplations involved in that, and it’s very extensive itself. It’s very important itself. So then one has to be able to reflect about precious human rebirth and how precious and meaningful it is, how difficult to find it is, and one has to think about impermanence of death, etcetera. So I have to think about all that. So then and then as for as for aiming once Dharma practice at the beggar, then the text is telling us, well, if we if we think that how to say, not working whilst not working to accomplish the happiness of this life, and then then we practice Dharma, then because we won’t be engaging in any we won’t have any jobs, we won’t have any work to do, and then because we think that in order to accomplish Dharma practice, there must be many conducive conditions, and then we then might come to believe that we won’t be able to fulfill all these conditions, we won’t be able to nurture our bodies, not even find enough food to nurture our bodies so we can practice Dharma, and so forth.
And that they will become will become just like beggars. So then if if one thinks in this way, the text is telling us: no. So the text is telling us if if such thoughts if such fearful doubtful thoughts occur to oneself, then one must then think to oneself that for the sake of the dharma, for the sake of accomplishing the dharma, then if I have to become a beggar, then may I become a beggar, be it. If I have to go without food or drink or clothing and and and and, how to say, with bad reputation, then beat for the sake of if if how to say, I will do whatever I am able to do.
I will bear with whatever I am able to bear for the sake of the Dharma. And then, I guess, as I saying, That if one if one can do so, I mean, if one can stop working to practice the Dharma, then one then one has become a beggar then. So then as for then aiming the beggar at death, then we we are we are told that if if we we fear, if we have any doubts that because we are not working to accumulate any material things, and then we become we live just like beggars, Then I was trying to accomplish, to practice the Dharma, then we won’t be able to to find even enough sustenance for for our own bodies, and that we might we might even then we fear that not having enough food and clothing, we might die. We might meet with death. And if if such thoughts come about, then we have to think that oneself many past lives, has how to say?
In all of one’s previous lifetimes, one has never given up one’s life, sacrificed one’s life for the sake of accomplishing the dharma. And now that one is accomplishing the dharma. So if one is able to die for that, then that’s good. Then many other people, the text is telling us, rich and rich people and and beggars alike, all of them, they are going to have to die. And then even the rich people themselves, in order to get was striving to accumulate the causes of their wealth, then they had to accumulate many negativities, and then in this way they died with all those negativities.
Now, how to say, if one meets with death whilst one is is is striving and and and and and hardships for the sake of the dharma, then that is that is extremely that’s very that’s that’s greatly meaningful. And then for the sake of the dharma, then if I have to die of of cold, then may I die. If I have to die of of starvation, then may I die. But I but I won’t, by any means, I will not give up the dharma. Okay?
As for the the the last of the four aims, then which is then aiming death at this desert, dusty retreat, then if one if one if if if the thought occurs to one that whilst one does not have any possessions or anything, then one when one will get when one gets ill or one when one gets old or when one is is dying, and then there won’t be anybody there to to look after oneself. There won’t be any there anyone there to tend or to to care for for for one’s body. But the text tell us if so and the text tell us that this this sort of thoughts, they are all, how to say, attachment for this life. So then one, So then there is not no there’s no there’s not there’s not even a certainty that one will be able to live long enough even to get old. So then one in for the sake once accomplishing the dharma, then let oneself be where there’s no no one to be seen in a in this desert, dusty place.
Let let oneself die like a dog with with maggots with with one’s corpse infested by maggots. And in this way, without attachment, then let oneself go to this to isolation and and and and practice the Dharma in this way. So then those those were the four aims, and then we start with the first one of of the the the three diamonds, so which which one which is sending the uncatchable, the unreachable diamond ahead of ahead of oneself. And then the text is telling us that if we are able then to give up this life in the way that was explained previously in the four aims, then while we are trying to accomplish that, then our parents and our dear friends and our loved ones will try to reach for us. And whilst they’re trying to reach, we we gotta make ourselves unreachable.
Even if we have to even if we have to, how to say, leave them, how to say, standing with tears in their eyes, even if we have to to leave those who are very extremely dear to ourselves just as as our own heart is dear to ourselves, then we must we must have an unchanging resolution, an unchanging resolute mind just like a vajra itself, a diamond, as strong as a diamond. And then in this way, we should we should go for a retreat, in in some in some mountain retreat, to to practice the Dharma without any regret and attachment. Okay? And Geshe-la is saying, so this is very difficult now, isn’t it? If anything our mother tells us, then we do, isn’t it?
And then as for the next one, which then what is it? Leaving behind the unashamed diamond. It’s to say that when when we go when we give up this life and and and go away, then people whatever whatever it is that people say, people will start saying that they’re calling us useless, wandering beggars, and and and that’s telling saying that we we do not want to work or anything like that. And whatever people say, be it good or bad, if they if they want to call us to say that we are just as good as gods, let them say it. If they want to say that we are as bad as as demons, let them say it.
It doesn’t make any difference to me. So then that concludes trying to keep the the trying to keep a good image with friends who are all devoted to to to the things of this life then can lead can lead us to to many problems, can lead us to many is the source of many of many shortcomings and faults, and then that also acts as an obstacle to to our practice, to our Dharma practice, to the accomplishment of Dharma practice. Not just until twelve. Until twelve. But if somebody has any questions or Oh, okay.
Oh, yeah. We can keep we can keep on going. There’s still the another another diamond to go. Are you tired? Is asking if you are tired or if you are hungry or anything like that.
So then this this this sort of teaching is immediately makes us how do say? Feel feel a sudden dislike for it, isn’t it? This is because it’s very difficult. Those are all very difficult issues. It’s very difficult to accomplish, to practice pure Dharma.
Let me ask a question. Yes, of course. Yesterday, I think you mentioned that you need to have renunciation before you go on to develop compassion and bodhicitta. Didn’t the Buddha, when he was Prince Siddhartha, didn’t he have compassion for all the people outside of his palace that were suffering, and then he renounced all that life to go and practice? It seems compassion could help you develop some renunciation for this life.
So then, Geshe-la said that first, he developed renunciation, and then later, he developed compassion. And then Geshe-la was telling he telling one one part of the story when he left the palace, and he saw ill people, and he saw old people, and he saw dead people, dying and dead people. And when he saw that, he understood the shortcomings of cyclic existence, and then then he developed aversion to saṃsāra. He developed renunciation, and then later on, he developed compassion. Okay.
Yeah. So didn’t didn’t No. So then didn’t didn’t he then develop renunciation first? Didn’t he then seeing the the false of of cyclic existence, seeing seeing those sick and and dying people and old people, he didn’t he think that even though he was wealthy, that’s that would come to him too. Isn’t that renunciation?
Yesterday, Geshe-la was talking about the three different types of suffering, suffering of suffering, suffering of change, suffering of accumulation. It seems that sometimes we can experience all of these three sufferings in one go. I was just wondering if that’s the case, if you’re just having a really hard time, do three lots of negative karma ripen and see sort of within one fell swoop? So then, yes, yeah, we we can experience these these types of suffering all the time. Then, if I wasn’t explaining for them, before this, when one is sick, then one is experiencing one experience experience the suffering of suffering.
That sickness is also the suffering of change itself. Somebody that wasn’t sickness then changed into sickness. And then all that condition comes about because of the compounded suffering, which is then the fact that we have these five aggregates which are the result of karma and afflictive emotions. Explaining that the suffering of suffering is a type of suffering that that can come it’s easy to see when it when it comes manifest, when it manifests itself, it’s easy to see, and then it can also comes it comes and goes. But the suffering of change, on the other hand, and the suffering all compounded suffering, even though they do not come as manifest as as visible or or sensible things as as the suffering suffering, they are they do not change, and they are always present.
But we do not understand that suffering of change and and compound of suffering are actually suffering. You want to know about this this Suffering. Suffering of change. Is always present? Happy?
It’s always present. Just just as as Always happy. No. Not always happy. The suffering of change is is always present.
So that happiness that we feel when we are having a pleasant experience while we are sitting, for example, sitting comfortably, that happiness, that is the suffering of change. That’s not always present. Suffering of change is always present. Every time that when we are eating a nice food, when we are having a nice sleep, all this is always Suffering of change, of course. But that’s not always present.
The suffering of change comes is what normal people call happiness. So that is not always present. Someone who is sick is not experiencing the happiness which we normally call the suffering of change. The people in Iraq aren’t experiencing the suffering of change. They’re experiencing the suffering of suffering.
It’s not always present. Think what maybe the question is saying is that when we experience what we call happiness that is pervaded by Even though it is not manifest, it is always present, it is always there. So we’re always happy in an unmanifest way? No, no, no. It’s not to say that that happiness is not happiness, that happiness is a suffering of change.
Yes. It’s not always present. Even though we might not be experiencing happiness all the time, the suffering of change is always there. So that means that when we experience But the of change means happiness, means worldly happiness. It’s the same meaning.
What what Geshe-la is trying to say maybe I’m maybe I’m not trying I’m not conveying it properly with proper idea proper words. What Geshe-la is trying to say is that even though the suffering of change is not always manifest, overtly manifest, it is present in the sense that it pervades all our lives from the moment that we acquire these afflicted contaminated aggregates until the day until the one day that we attain liberation and enlightenment, then the suffering of change will always be there. Just because we are not because I wasn’t saying that just because we are not experiencing samsaric happiness, that doesn’t mean that the suffering of change is there in this suffering contaminated aggregates. It’s because we have the suffering contaminated aggregates, we have the suffering of change. As long as we have that, as long as we have the contaminated aggregates, we have the the the So then Geshe-la didn’t say did did you did you listen to what he was saying?
He said he wasn’t saying that the the the suffering, compounded suffering, which is then this contaminated five aggregates of ours, they are not happiness. They are not some suffering happiness. This is the suffering of change. So there was a compounded pervasive suffering. The third type of suffering.
Then Geshe-la is saying that what is called what is called happiness, what is here in this context being referred as happiness, is the feeling of happiness. Mhmm. Happy happy happy feelings. Mhmm. Right?
Mhmm. And feelings is one of the aggregates. Right? But happy feelings are not always present. Happy feelings are not happy feelings are not always because I wasn’t saying that all the other so then you have happiness, which is happiness happiness, which is this happy feelings, so then every other aggregate is not happiness.
Right. So then Geshe-la is saying that we do not say that the suffering of change is happiness, we do not say that. We say that change is referring to the fact that it is impelled by by karma and afflictive emotions. It is something which is something which is impelled by karma and afflictive emotions. But that doesn’t last.
It changes. So then, Geshe Geshe-la is explaining that change, what is meant by change and that suffering of change, then it is not to say that it is something which changes because it comes out of causes and conditions. That is not to say that because even bodhis and bodhisattvas, they come out of causes and conditions. But it is to say that it is something that comes out of causes and conditions that have arise out of karma and afflictive emotions. Yes.
Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And then they change, and then this way the other suffering has changed.
The straightaway. I still don’t see how you can say it’s present. Isn’t the suffering change? Which which normal people call happiness, is the ripening of good karma? That is ripening all the time.
Then, samsaric happiness is the suffering of change. The suffering of change is not samsaric happiness. He says that there’s there’s nothing not to understand. And I say, yes, there is. So then, samsaric happiness is the suffering of change.
It’s suffering of change. Is not samsaric happiness. Are you saying not all examples of? Geshe-la, so that’s why I I want to ask That just So then So then, samsaric happiness is the suffering of change. So then, suffering of change is not samsaric happiness.
Do you mean not all suffering of change is samsaric happiness? Logic. Logic. Logic. Okay?
Logic. That’s what we got how do we say it anyway. That’s what we got caught up. Okay? Geshe-la Zhen is saying, so the person Mhmm.
Is a thing. Right? It’s a functioning thing. Right? A functioning thing is an impermanent phenomena, isn’t it?
So then a person is an impermanent phenomena, but impermanent phenomena is not a person. Not all of impermanent. That’s what I was trying to say. Yes, they’re not all of it. So what is an example of a changeable suffering which is not worldly happiness?
Contaminated aggregate of form. It’s an example of this of suffering of change. That’s what you just said. That is the suffering of change. Isn’t that an example of compounded suffering?
Yes, is compounded suffering also. Being compounded suffering and being at the same time the suffering of change is not contradictory. It is the suffering of change because it is compounded suffering. If it is not compounded, it doesn’t change. If it’s not compounded, it doesn’t change, isn’t it?
So why can’t you just hold it the same? If it’s not a product, it doesn’t change, doesn’t it? It changes because it is a product, it changes because it is compounded. Being a product and being compounded is the same. But the way I’ve always heard the suffering of change explained I know, I know.
Is that it doesn’t actually change into suffering, it always is suffering. So it’s only called the suffering of change because it appears to our gross mind to be happiness and change. We believe it to be happiness. But in fact it’s a type of suffering from the very beginning, which is meditated on. It is suffering of change, yes.
Explained by Lama Zopa Rinpoche. Doesn’t that mean that it’s all We just got the logical explanation of it. Because the then suffering of happiness is suffering of change, don’t they? Pardon? Suffering of suffering changes, suffering of change changes and the compound of pervasive suffering changes.
None of them are permanent. So so then so then I’m illustrating the sense, so then then you were you were told that samsaric happiness is a suffering of change. Mhmm. But then not everything that is a suffering of change is samsaric happiness. Okay.
That make sense? Yes. Yes. Now if if you include the the the other one in it. Yeah.
This one. This one. That’s okay? This one. This one.
There you follow? Okay. Makes sense. Makes sense. Logically, it makes sense.
Sure enough, it does make sense. Where is it? Sure enough, makes sense. Logically, it makes sense. No, no, I What is that?
I’ve never heard it ever explained that the suffering of change is also the two become synonymous, the last two. They’re Completely synonymous because there are other examples. No. They’re not synonymous. They’re not contradictory in this case.
In that instance, they’re not contradictory. So then, So then, a person is a functioning thing. A functioning thing is not a person. Exactly. So then the pervasion of suffering of change is larger than the pervasion of samsaric happiness.
Yeah. It’s making sense for her alright. Cool. Not this one. Okay?
Thank you. Good, good. Yeah.