Dependent Origination — 2015-04-03

# 01-150403_1334.mp3

> **Collection:** Audio Recordings — Dependent Origination
> **Duration:** 52.4 minutes
> **Words:** 5,343
> **Model:** Deepgram Nova-3
> **Corrections:** 14 Buddhist terminology fixes
> **Transcribed:** 2026-03-02 19:55

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Then I think we will start with the questions. You can see it’s a sign of the success of TBI that each year I have more things strapped to me and I get wired a bit more. So the way things are going in a couple of years, I would have a direct brain tap here. But do you have any questions? First on the topic of this morning.

Please. So within the 12 links, you have five links which are connected to the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering and seven links connected to the Noble Truth of Suffering. The first five links connected to the Noble Truth of the Origin of Suffering include three afflictions and two links of karma. Then ignorance, the first link is an affliction. The other two afflictions are appropriation and craving.

And the two links of karma are respectively the second link compositional factors and the tenth link existence. So there’s a technical answer to make it really simple. The distinction is that ignorance is part of the noble truth of suffering, as is the link of compositional factors, but ignorance is an affliction. Compositional factors are not an affliction, they are karma. They are actually impelling karma.

Does that answer your question? Good. Good. Please. Well, that is actually a very particular Buddhist way of putting things.

The translation of the Sanskrit term is long chi. It really refers to experience. Our senses have objects of experience. Then these objects of experience are called objects of enjoyment, you know. It is what is experienced by the senses.

So what what you see, what you What you hear, what you feel, what you taste, which we all think we enjoy, basically. You’re welcome. This topic, the 12 links, you have to memorize the links. There’s no mystery about it. And then I won’t enter too much into the distinction until Geshe-la does so.

But you have causal links and result links. You have to know which is which. You have to know which of the links are karma, which are afflictions, and which are the resulting links. And then you have to understand how to posit them over for a given person over a cycle of lives. Then Geshela would explain perhaps this afternoon, perhaps tomorrow, that the 12 links one cycle of the 12 links can only mature over two or three lives.

There is no other possibility. And all of saṃsāra as we know it is interweaving of a huge number of series of the 12 links. There’s some very particular points you should have may enter into. There’s some substantial disagreements between the monasteries. There is even disagreements between the manual authors and Je Tsongkhapa about the treatise.

So it is quite quite technical. Over two or three months. Which are not necessarily subsequent. So you can have life one for the first group of the 12 links, and the second life in that cycle may be life 56 or life 2,000. In the first life, you would have six links.

In the second life, you would have six links. The six links in the first life life are the causal links. The six links in the second life are the result links. If they mature over three lives, then you will have three links in life one through the three first causal links. You will have three links maybe in life 500, the next three causal links, and you will have the remaining six effect links at some point in the future.

It’s a very powerful analysis. Is that why you were saying that your stream of bonds is sort of all mixed up? Completely. It’s it’s like a tapestry. Yeah.

It’s like a tapestry. Yes. Well, an example, you’d have to have you’d have to have basically paranormal powers to see into the past life, says Buddha Śākyamūni, which I don’t have. But I could give you an example. I will make one up.

Let’s say over two lives first. In the first life, under the power of ignorance you might want to have your list of the 12 links in front of you. Otherwise, you would not be able to follow this. No. If you have a list of the 12 links, Then I’ll get mine.

It’ll make things easier for all of us. This you should have. All of you should have. The 12 liens. It hasn’t been given out.

Was given out? It doesn’t matter. You have a list here of the 12 links with the definitions that will make it easier. No, I’ll use it for myself in this Tibetan, so it doesn’t help you. Well, Lily, maybe you could during the break.

Not now. I use it. But during the break, There’s a lot of extra material here you don’t need in Tibetan, but it might be helpful. So basically, you have your 12 links here. And you can see the subdivided, in my chart, subdivided into cause and effect.

Right? So the first two links are the causal links, ignorance and propositional factor, to which you add consciousness. Then you have another three causal links, links eight, nine and ten, craving, appropriation and existence. So far so good? Okay.

Very good. Where is that grant? Very good. Ah, yes, yes, that’s very good. So page two and three of this handout, Asaṇga’s Abhidhamma Samuchaya, you have the list of the 12 links.

Alright? Then we’re going to go into material which really Gesheera will be covering later, but it’s connected with Susan’s question. So the two first links are considered causes, ignorance and compositional factors, two point one and two point two. And links 2.3, excuse me, links one, two, three are causes. The three first links are causes. And links eight, nine, and ten are also causes.

Okay? Everything else is an effect. So far so good. Now, when the two links mature over two lives, which don’t have to be subsequent, what you have is this situation. You have all the cause links in one life, and at some point in the indefinite future, all the result links in another life.

So in one life you will have ignorance, compositional factors, consciousness, craving, appropriation and existence. And at some point in the distant future, this will mature and you will have name and form, the so called six loci, the senses, contact, sensation, birth, aging, and death. So if we take one life to understand one case, excuse me, to understand how this would mature, let us imagine in this life, someone out of ignorance accumulates the karma of killing. Let us say for political reasons, to gain power in a country. It’s often, you know, people can have very, very high ideas about why they commit non virtues.

An assassination is ordered. So the ignorance is the first link in that life. The compositional factor is the karma of killing which is accumulated on the basis of that. This is an impending karma. In other words, it will at some point in the future impel a life.

Now in that life, that very life, at the end of the life, craving, in other words, a powerful desire, let us say, a powerful desire wishing for instance for great wealth arises within the mind of the person. This desire increases in power. When it increases in power, it is called appropriation. This is the next link. This appropriation causes the karmic imprint of killing which was present in the mind to mature enough to impel another life.

That is the limb of existence, limb number 10. So what you have is in life n, the two first limbs implant a karmic imprint. Then limbs eight and nine are the afflictions which caused this comic imprint to start to mature. And limb 10 is that comic imprint at the end of that life precipitating the next life. So we have a deed of killing, which is led to maturation by great craving for money.

This was will cause a lower rebirth and that is the next set of six limbs in some future life. It doesn’t have to be the next life, it can be 50 lives from now. And then in that future life, the first limb is name and form. Name and form basically is the embryo from the type of cons from the time of conception until approximately two months in the process of gestation. So before these sense organs have appeared.

We’re looking at the two first months in the womb. Now because it’s a lower rebirth, it might be an embryo, let us say, in this case perhaps as a carnivorous animal. A powerful carnivorous animal, a tiger. The sixth launch eye, the next limb is the appearance of the sense organs, but they do not function. You see that if you look at ultrasound pictures of infants in the womb, the eye and ear orifices are present but they do not operate.

So this is a sixth locus. Six because you have the five senses plus the mental sense. Alright? The following limb contact occurs when the sense organs are in contact with the object. But there is not yet an experience of the object.

That experience occurs in the limb of sensation. And that distinction between pleasant and unpleasant experiences occurs at that point. And the following limb is birth, which is a very short process, followed by the limb of aging and death, lasts the rest of this cycle of 12 lives. This is how of the cycle of the 12 links. This is how the 12 links will mature over two lives.

All the causes in life life one and the existence which is impelled in life two. And then in life two, another cycle, actually many other cycles of the 12 links will be created. Thousands, millions perhaps. Then in life three, it’s actually quite simple. You still have the six causes in the two first lives and the six results in the last life.

But the six causes are divided between the two first lives. Okay? So in the first life, you will have consciousness, compositional factors, in other words karma. Excuse me, ignorance, compositional factors and consciousness. And in the second life, you will have the three afflictions.

Right? Or two afflictions and existence which is karma. In the following life, you have the six limbs of the result, which is the matured life. Now this is how it would mature over three lives. It cannot mature in one life and it cannot mature in four lives.

And this is not easy to understand. So the best thing to do is first to memorize the links, then to understand what are causes, what are effects, and how this maturation process occurs. Susan, that’s a long answer to your question. I hope it helped. Well, you did ask.

I had to give an example. If you understand the 12 links, you understand saṃsāra. If you don’t understand the 12 links, you don’t understand saṃsāra. Please. Whoever.

Normally, they don’t. Right? Normally, they don’t. It’s a really good question. Then it is said that if the object is extremely weighty, it can happen.

But it would not happen for an impelling karma. That is what is specifically talked about in the traveling. Impelling karma is a karma which impels a birth. So obviously, you are in one life. Within that life, what might mature at the end of that life will be, for instance, great mental disturbance or even an accident.

But for an impelling karma to give fruit, you need another rebirth. You need at least two lives. Does that answer your question? No. That would be because the ripening of a set of 12 links involves a life.

Right? That would be the karma due to habituation. So because of habituation with stealing in previous life, first, you generate cycles of 12 links each time you steal. So a complete deed of stealing is performed. But in addition, the mind becomes accustomed to stealing.

In other words, you want something and you just appropriate it. And then that habituation is carried over into future lives. So Stevenson’s cases are full of that. Yeah. Full of that.

It’s possible. But no, it would not be in the same cycle of 12 links. A cycle of 12 links connects a deed with a rebirth. Therefore, it can’t happen in one life. The big question is in how many lives can it happen?

That’s why the Buddhist analysis that it can only happen in two or three lives is extremely interesting. You don’t find a presentation of the 12 links in any of the non Buddhist Indian traditions. Please. No. No.

No. You have to distinguish. The topic of coma is, in my opinion, the most complicated topic in Buddhist studies. It’s much more difficult than emptiness. In fact, it’s much more useful for us.

So you have impending karma because it’s something we can put in practice, isn’t it? You have impending karma which impels a life. Now that, the karma which is referred to within the 12 links, both the compositional factors and existence, the second and the tenth link, these are impelling karma. Then you have completing karma, which if you wish, fleshes out the details in a life. That is not what is referred to here.

Then you have, for instance, environmental comma. You know, sometimes called controlling comma. That also is not what is referred to here. In the case of 12 links, it really refers to rebirth since the eleventh link is birth, isn’t it? Does that answer your question?

Molly, you had a question. Can be. It could be the next life if the delusion was very powerful. That is the criteria, isn’t it? So if the delusion at the time of death is very powerful, then it could lead to a maturation of the following six links if you have this happening over two lives in the next life.

But this is by no means necessary and we covered together some cases in the two presentations this year, which I drew from Stevenson and some British psychiatrist who used hypnotic regression. And you could really see that maturation can be a very long drawn out process. In one case we covered, we could see maturation over a thousand years. Yes. And there is an unanswered question which is basically the big debate between Asaṇga and Vasubandu.

Does a comic seed mature once or can it mature several times? Vasubandu says it’s only once. Asaṇga implies that one karmic seed, that doesn’t imply he states. Yogacarabhumi that one karmic seed can give rise to several lives. I don’t know, to be honest with you.

I don’t know. I mean, looking at the data, I have a lot of sympathy for Asaṇga’s viewpoint, but it’s not the orthodox viewpoint. But there’s no way to decide because we don’t have access to all the evidence. When we look at cases of hypnotic regression, which is why I’ve I’ve tried to present that here, first we’re not sure if the cases are reliable or not. Then the patient doesn’t remember all the memories, all the existences.

And within an existence, he doesn’t remember everything. So it’s very difficult to analyze carefully. Are there other questions? Yes, please. Exactly.

That’s exactly it. That’s why Nāgārjuna says in I think it’s 10 to 59 of bodhichitta Vivarana, I do not accept a being apart from the wheel of the 12 links. It precisely for that reason that it is taught. In other words, there is nothing apart from I think I put it in circular form here. These 12 links which are just a series of circles intersecting each other.

And when we speak of the continuum of consciousness, actually the continuum of the aggregates because we have the form aggregate within here, then it is just this, nothing else. So for this reason, the topic of the 12 links is the main, if you wish, dividing point between Buddhism and non Buddhism in India. There is this presentation of the so called 11 topics of the 12 links by Asaṇga. In which Asaṇga says that the 12 links were taught to counter the existence of god. In other words, the existence of god.

If you subscribe to the 12 rings, if you fully understand the 12 rings, it is not possible to accept the existence of God. There is no place for God in this in this pattern. There was also another of the 11 topics according to Asaṇga is that it was taught to teach selflessness. Not really, no. Because of the 12 links, some are partly material like name and form, the fourth link is partly material.

It includes a form aggregate. Right? Try to understand them first strictly. It’s already hard enough. You know, I mean, I I understand everyone likes metaphors.

It’s the easy way out. But metaphors are quite dangerous because a metaphor always has unwanted metaphoric consequences you have to take on board. Right? But try to understand it strictly and if you use metaphors, be very sure your metaphors fit. Do you have other questions?

Yes, please. Or Jill. Well many reasons. First, by definition, someone who is born in the lower realms would have an inordinate amount of self grasping and afflictions. If you have dogs, is now my case, know, you can see that directly.

There’s very little conceptual activity. There’s a tremendous amount depending on the dog of attachment or of anger or both in the worst cases. And then obviously, animals are much more under the sway of the sensory input than we are. I I’m not quite sure how a dog perceives the world, but I would imagine you’ll be overwhelmed with odors and perhaps sights. Now what’s maybe sound as well, what is left as capacity to move away from sensory input?

I’m not sure there’s a lot. Like I yet have to see the day when my dog looks at a bowl of yogurt turns away and says I leave it for the other one needy. It’s never it’s never happened. It’s never happened. Now this is the difference between an animal and a human being, isn’t it?

When we speak of ethics, this is what we speak about. The capacity to say no. Something we really want to do and we say no, I will not. An animal is not able to do that. That’s why ethics is the foundation for higher rebirth, which an animal can never accumulate.

Yes, please. Well, they all teach the 12 links. Then there’s a twin subdivision of dependent origination. You have outer and inner dependent origination. The 12 links is part of inner dependent origination.

Inner dependent origination is taught in the same way by all the schools. They differ regarding the nature of ignorance. That’s where the big difference lies. But then if you look at the Indian schools of philosophy, that’s the source of all the disagreement, isn’t it? All the Indian schools of philosophy agree about the existence of reincarnation, all agree about the existence of liberation with the exception of the materialists, then nobody really agrees about what ignorance is.

So it’s ignorance which is the crux and which is how it should be. Do you have other questions? Prayers prayers of the no. Now in praise of dependent origination is is different. That refers to exterior dependent origination, which is the interdependence of phenomena.

So interior dependent origination is the 12 links. That is basically how our aggregates evolve within a given continuum. Exterior dependent origination is in the interdependence of phenomena. Then regarding exterior dependent origination, I didn’t want to enter into that when Natalie talked about it, There are big differences between the presentations of the schools that we cover in tenants. Well, then they recite that because if you are in the Mahāyāna tradition, then you view the realization of the emptiness of persons and of phenomena as a way to gain liberation from psychic existence and to attain full enlightenment.

So it’s the ultimate antidote if you wish. That’s why it’s done. Do have any other yes, Richard, maybe. That’s comma, yes. So affliction is the first, ignorance.

The eighth, craving. And the ninth, appropriation. Everything else is a noble truth of suffering. And you will notice, if you look carefully when I say everything else, that the limb of consciousness, the third limb, is included in the aggregate of, excuse me, in the noble truth of suffering, which is very thought provoking. Sorry, could you repeat that?

Yes. So you have five limbs which are connected with the noble truth of the origin of suffering, and seven which are connected with the noble truth of suffering. Alright? And the origin of suffering comes before suffering in the causal presentation. In the presentation of the four noble truths, which Guru Śākyamūni gave it the other way around, as you know, to emphasize the importance of suffering.

Right? Now the first five limbs which are connected to the noble truth of the origin of suffering are divided into two. You have three afflictions and you have two commas. So the three afflictions are the first limb, ignorance, The eighth limb, craving. And the ninth limb, appropriation, which is an intensification of craving.

Intensification so great, it can lead to the maturation of karma. And the two limbs of comma are the second limb, which is compositional factors, which is comma when it is implanted in the mind stream. Like at the moment when, let us say, you look at the table and you say that Rolex is really nice. He doesn’t need it, I do. That you have implanted at that point the second limb, composition of factors of stealing within your mind stream.

Then the next limb of coma is a tenth limb, which is called existence simply because that is the final, if you wish, the final point of comma which is on the point of precipitating an existence. So the cause is named in the light of its result. And that occurs at the time of death. So at the time of death, even greater craving arises in your mind stream, it becomes so great, at this point it’s called appropriation, that it will actually cause the comic imprint within your mind stream to mature and precipitate an existence. At that point, that comic imprint is called existence.

It’s very helpful to understand the 12 links in terms of this three to seven subdivision. Pamela, please. First And then where does consciousness fit into the into into that? Is is it a suffering? So it’s not because something is a noble truth of suffering that is not included within causes.

Consciousness is a cause, but it’s not included within the truth of the origin, but within the truth of suffering. But if you break down the 12 links into causes and effect, then consciousness is within the group of the six causes. Then the issue of consciousness is a difficult one. Because when you say consciousness is a truth of suffering, there’s a lot of food for thought there. Like, you can see, for instance, that this would counter basically But ignorance is possible.

Yeah. But you could see this would counter, for instance, most of the non-Gelug traditions in Tibet. Right? Most of the non-Gelug traditions in Tibet teach the existence of a fundamental mind which is pure. That if consciousness is within the noble truth of suffering, there’s no such thing, you know.

But these things are very, very far reaching, I think. Please. Well, I’ll tell you what we’ll do, but I will ask you a favor because I’m giving material which is I’m giving out material before Geshele has covered this, basically at your request. So I’ll ask Lee to photocopy this for us, but don’t ask Geshela questions on it until he covers it. It’s not polite because it’s really awkward.

You know, if I do that, then it’s not possible to answer your questions without going into things. So when he covers the material, if you want to ask questions in the class on it, that’s fine. But don’t ask now, please. Okay? Yes.

Exactly. That’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. So when you study the 12 links, you study them in the forward and the reverse order. In the forward order, it is a order of generation of saṃsāra.

In the reverse order, it’s the order of cessation of saṃsāra. It is a very beautiful topic, you know. And then as Gesheera explained very elegantly this morning, you have the 12 links for virtuous deeds and the 12 links for non virtuous deeds. Both virtuous and non virtuous deeds are the cause of. Contaminated virtuous deeds create saṃsāra.

If you practice generosity with a thought of getting a higher rebirth, that’s a cause for saṃsāra, for being rebirth in a higher realm. Then a non virtuous deed is obviously also the cause of saṃsāra. Any deed which is not practiced in conjunction with the wisdom which realizes selflessness can only be the cause for psychic existence. And then indeed, you have to really study the 12 links in connection with the four noble truths. Please, Saffo.

Oh, yes. Completely. It is it goes much further than that. If you accept the presentation of the 12 links which all four Buddhist schools of tenets accept, Vaibhāṣika, Sautrāntika, Cittamātra, Mādhyamika, it is impossible to assert the existence of God in keeping with Asaṇga’s presentation of the 11 topics we talked about. The 12 links were specifically taught to refute the existence of a creator.

So it is not possible to be a Buddhist and to accept the existence of God. Then obviously, if one accepts the Prāsaṇgika madhyamika view, according to which there are no inherently existing phenomenon, then God is the inherently existing phenomenon, certainly in the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim presentation. Then in the Hindu presentations, there are many presentations you would have to distinguish. Yes. Yes.

The demurrage. Yes. I mean, certainly, well, this is the not only the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim view, but Aristotle’s view of God. God is out of creation. He is the prime mover.

Aristotle, God is not a person, so that’s a different story. But in every single case, God does not depend on creation. There’s a one way dependence of creation and creatures on god, but god does not depend on creation. There’s no mutual dependence. Then it gets very complicated in Hinduism.

Excuse me, Sheng, you wanted to ask a question. With ignorance. It’s a nice way to put it. It’s a nice way to put it. You never, never say.

So you’re saying we should pray our ignorance which art in heaven? Well, basically, in this life, I think overall overall, unless the deal is very powerful, it doesn’t really work. So it’ll just make your bank account smaller. Then that’s if you do it for this life, it’s not Buddhist practice. It’s it’s mundane, really.

You know? If you do it for the next lives, then that’s path of the being of a small scope. That’s very good. And there may be an effect at the end of this life is possible. There’s no guarantee that it’s possible.

But at present, when we’re talking of the 12 links, we’re really talking of the path of the being of the middling scope. And the way to train for the path of the being of the middling scope is to reflect on the suffering nature of everything we live. Not just the three sufferings, but the six and the eight sufferings. The six sufferings, for instance, the suffering of dissatisfaction, the suffering of unreliability, suffering of falling from the high to the low. And since 02/2008, we have seen a lot of this.

People who I knew before 02/2008 who were very influential, very wealthy, and are poor. Then the people whom I knew who were poorish before 02/2008, they are still poor, but poorer, you know. Then there is nothing to hang on to. And the beginning of the path for the being of the building scope is that realization that not just in this life, but in every single life after this one, we’re go through the same thing over and over and over again. I see with my ancestors.

My ancestors were were warlords, you know. My ancestors were warlords. They were the voivodes of Montenegro. And the great specialty was killing. Right?

They did it very well for seven hundred years, you know. And if you look at what they left behind them, there is nothing. There’s nothing. My great grand uncle decapitated a Turkish beg in single combat on horse. He conquered the South Of Montenegro for the king.

The king gave him a huge swathe of land. Then the communists took over. Gone. Right? So my great grand uncle, I don’t know what his motivation was, you know.

Some Tibetans had told a story to, told me it was a motivation of a Bodhisattva. I have some major doubts. But it is true that the two armies were facing each other and he said to the Turkish beg, instead of having thousands, there’s 30,000 men under my great grand uncle, the same number under the Turks. Instead of having thousands of dead, why don’t you and I settle it together? There was a very unfair proposal because my great grand grand uncle was huge physically and very accomplished.

And the poor Turkish beg didn’t have a chance, I think. But if you look at that, these are very famous people. Then you look after, like, one century. What’s left? Right?

And when you look at it like that, these things have no substance. Right? And then the path of the being of the middling scope starts to make a lot of sense because it’s not just one life like this which has no substance. We’ve been doing this for a very long time. And at the end of this very long time, we are still where we are right now.

But there’s no nothing to show for it, you know. And then I must say that Buddhist monk who gave that answer is very, very intelligent because there was an entire school, and I’ll start with this. There was an entire school or a series of schools between the beginning of our era and the sixth century called the Gnostic schools, which contested the Christian interpretation of the bible in exactly this way. They affirmed the existence of two entities, a creator, the demiurge, who was evil, exactly like ignorance. They believed in reincarnation, and they asserted the entity of a true god who was hidden.

Then according to them, the god of the old testament was this evil god whom you had to fight against. And Jesus had tried to teach the true god, but none had not been allowed to do so. So I don’t know if that old monk knew about all of this or not, but it’s very sharp, very sharp rejoinder. Then I’m afraid we have to stop here for today. I’d strongly encourage you to memorize the 12 links.

Just work through them in the forward from one to 12 in reverse orders, and try to memorize what are the causes, what are the results, what are common afflictions and suffering in the groups, and try to understand past and future lives in this way. It’s not easy, but this is the gateway to understanding cyclic existence. Thank you very much. If you could give me my originals back when you have finished. Yes.

Thank you very much.