Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 77-minute teaching from Venerable Thubten Dondrub’s Presenting the Path series, he presents the three levels of Buddhist motivation and dwells extensively on bodhicitta, the aspiration to achieve enlightenment for the benefit of all beings. He begins by clarifying the progressive framework: renouncing obsession with this life alone; then renouncing saṃsāra for one’s own liberation; and finally, bodhicitta—the wish to achieve enlightenment to relieve the suffering of all sentient beings. The core obstacle to bodhicitta is self-cherishing, a distorted self-concern that drives us to see others as friends, enemies, or strangers, blocking genuine love and compassion. He explains the Buddhist definitions of love and compassion as wishing others to have happiness and its causes, and freedom from suffering and its causes—not mere attachment. The teaching then introduces two classical methods for cultivating bodhicitta: Asaṇga’s seven-causes-and-one-effect technique, which rests on recognizing that all sentient beings have been our mothers across infinite rebirths and have shown us kindness; and Śāntideva’s approach, which emphasizes equalizing oneself with others by recognizing our shared fundamental wish to be happy. Pitched at practitioners studying the Mahāyāna path and working to transform their motivation from self-concern to universal compassion.
File metadata (for organising)
File: DB Presenting The Path Week 7-v2.mp3
UUID: f6528684-898a-4f1e-b89a-b0e1cd8fb437
Teacher: Ven Thubten Dondrub
Collection: DB Presenting the Path (Ven Thubten Dondrub)
Date: 2016 (exact day not recorded)
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 76.6 minutes
Words: ~5,656
This life is all there is and focus because of that. Focusing just on the things of this life to the exclusion of taking care of our mind. So we have to renounce that attitude, that statement, that attitude, of view, working for our future rebirth. And then on the basis of having done that, then we can develop a deeper level of motivation for practicing Buddha’s teachings, which is to get out of cyclic existence, so to speak. So to renounce this life, what we need to think about more and more is that we have a precious human rebirth, the optimum chance to practice the Dharma.
We need to realize we’re gonna die. We could die at any time, and that when we die, it really it’s the state of our mind that is gonna help us at the time of death, not all these worldly accomplishments and so on, but the state of our mind due to our spiritual practice. And then we need to think about the possibility of experiencing a suffering rebirth. This will motivate us to take refuge, which is about making a commitment to taking care of the mind, relying on the Buddha’s methods to do so, and this will lead us to focus on understanding and practicing the law of cause and effect. See that that’s the most important thing to do in this life, to live our life according to the law of cause and effect.
So on the basis of doing that, then I can develop this this deeper level of motivation for practicing teachings, which is to become free of all suffering to get outside of existence completely, and that motivation arises from realizing more and more deeply that nature of existence, that even having a good rebirth is not so great. We simply can’t escape suffering even if we have a good rebirth. While our mind is controlled by delusion and karma, that’s we’re be that’s going that’s the mind seeking to get out of saṃsāra in order to experience the bliss of nirvana. But then the greatest motivation, the deepest level of motivation that we can cultivate, which is our topic for tonight is the bodhicitta motivation, wishing to, which involves renouncing, seeking the bliss of nirvana just for oneself but rather developing the wish to achieve enlightenment, recognizing that as an enlightened being, I can repay the kindness of others? So now our topic is the third level of motivation, bodhicitta.
So that’s that involves renouncing the second level of motivation involves deciding to renounce saṃsāra, which means deciding to eliminate all the delusions from one’s mind, and that means I have to focus on developing wisdom, the wisdom that realizes the true nature of things because that is the antidote to the very cause of cyclic existence, the very basis of all my delusions, which is ignorance. So if we develop that wisdom just for our own sake to get out of saṃsāra, then eventually we will achieve the bliss of nirvana. But although this is a wonderful goal, a very virtuous one, it is from a Mahāyāna point of view, it is a limited one because if we achieve nirvana, this is very beneficial for ourselves. But in that state, we can’t be of any real benefit to others, especially when we die that’s why the Mahāyāna tradition emphasizes that we have to get out of saṃsāra, not just experiencing this continuous bliss of our mind so we can progress to enlightenment. So that’s why the Mahāyāna teachings emphasize from the very beginning to develop this awareness of our connection with others, to cultivate that the minds of loving kindness and compassion, recognizing our connection with all sentient beings.
And so the more we develop that awareness and are able to be mindful of it, then we won’t this will encourage us not to seek just our own liberation, So there are two methods of developing or two main methods of developing this this determination to achieve enlightenment, which is called enlightenment, mind determined to achieve enlightenment. So these two main methods come from two great Indian masters. One who lived around the sixth century of this era and the other yes. Around the eighth century of this era. So these two great masters are called Asaṇga and Śāntideva.
And then there was another method of generating bodhicitta, cultivating it, which is basically a combination of of Asaṇga’s and Śāntideva’s methods. It’s not a sort of a separate method. It’s just a combination of both. And both of these methods of cultivating this determination to achieve enlightenment for others is based on first developing the mind of equanimity. So even if one follows the path to achieve just the mind of equanimity, this involves developing equanimity.
So equanimity is the antidote or it’s the opposite state of mind that the mind which we have right now, which tends to classify people, maybe even other sentient people, human beings, other sentient beings into three categories, and these are the categories of friend, enemy, and stranger. Sometimes it may take longer than that, but we tend to see people as friends, enemies, strangers, and with friends we spend our time with them and direct our positive qualities, attitudes towards them. With a stranger, we tend to ignore them, be indifferent to them, be indifferent to them, neither harm them nor help them. And with the enemy, we tend to suffer. Not always, but that can happen.
So the more and this seems a very natural process. We all do this to some extent. We classify and behave this way. The trouble with it is that well, the Buddha says we have the potential within us. We have this Buddha potential within us, And what that means, one way of looking at what that means is that within us, we actually have the potential, if our mind wasn’t obscured, to love everyone, not just a few people, and not just people who are nice, nice to us or nice in general.
We have this potential to love everyone. We have the potential to feel compassion for everyone. We have potential to feel compassion for everyone. We have yeah. But that that potential is obscured, so what we tend to do with our very limited mind and obscured mind, we think having aversion for them is causing more suffering to ourselves than anyone else.
And the Buddha also is saying that the real source of genuine peace and happiness So if we develop our love and compassion for a small group of people, we do the math as they said as the Americans say. It’s very, very limited. It just means we we just go to self. It just keeps us extremely limited. And always doing the same thing.
We like the same people, and we have aversion to the same kind of people who remain different people over and over again. It’s very boring. And if you check when we focus on a small group of people, our family and friends, although we may not consciously think about this, it’s like we’re telling ourselves that these people are the most interesting, amazing people in the entire world. And the vast majority of people are indifferent to them. The enemies we don’t care about.
We focus on this little group. That’s it. And also what we do is we believe that this little group, my friends, are permanent. These will always be my friends. They will always love me.
I will always love you. That’s not true. Things change remarkably quickly, remarkably regularly and frequently, and it’s always a surprise. So the main way to Yeah. So by by following the system of categorizing people as friend and stranger, we are just perpetuating our disturbing thoughts of having attachment for friends because although we call it love, in many cases, it’s just attachment.
It’s just afflicted desire and attachment. And so we cultivate that by we have aversion or hatred for the enemies and indifference to strangers. And we may think, oh, indifference is not so bad. But actually, if you check, that also is blocking our And of course, by having genuine love and compassion for others, it will benefit them. So this process of seeing for an enemy a stranger blocks, you know, all our the development of all our good qualities encourages the actual the activation of our negative ones.
So it’s certainly a great obstacle to develop bodhicitta, the wish to achieve enlightenment for the sake of all sentient beings because bodhicitta wants everyone to be happy, everyone to be free of suffering, not just some people, but everyone, Why we if if you check, why we label label people as friends, enemies, and strangers is really because of this this state of mind we have called self-cherishing. So self-cherishing sounds like a positive thing, but in fact, it is an extremely negative state of mind which we all have or we all tend to fall into. We all have it at some point regularly. It arises in our mind very regularly and unfortunately, and it it it is the source of all our suffering. It leads us to engage in every kind of negative action, all of the ten non-virtues of killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, and lying, and all of those things are all motivated by the self-cherishing thought.
So it’s really important to understand what the self-cherishing thought is because it is the greatest obstacle to developing bodhicitta. So it is a very big topic, but just in a nutshell, very quickly. Some of you have heard me mumble about this quite a bit already. But some here happened. So we because of our nature, we have this natural wish to be happy.
Wish to have genuine, lasting happiness. But because our mind is obscured, that wish for genuine happiness, long lasting, perfect happiness that is achieved by not harming ourselves and others, that gets distorted into what becomes self-cherishing, and how it tends to operate is that because our mind is obscured, we are suffering all the time, even though that suffering in the sense of feeling dissatisfaction and incomplete and not fully satisfied, that is always there to some extent. Much of the time, we’re not conscious of it, but sometimes we’re very conscious of it. Sometimes we’re experiencing very obvious suffering, but also sometimes there’s just some feeling of disquiet starts to arise in the mind. So there’s that or some obvious pain, suffering, physical and mental occurs, And what happens is instead of dealing with that in a wise, skillful way, our self-cherishing takes over because what the self-cherishing does is that as soon as there’s any discomfort or pain or fear or worry, the self-cherishing believes the solution is to distract the mind, not to deal with the suffering wisely and get to the root of the cause of it, but just simply to distract us.
And if we can distract ourselves really well, then we call it well-being. We think that we’re being successful, and this is happiness. So if anything can distract us, we see that thing as good. That can distract me from my pain, my suffering, my discomfort. This is good.
This is happiness. And if we can do it quickly and easily, that’s even better. So this is the fundamental nature of what self-cherishing is. It it creates the illusion that it’s leading me to do what is best for me. self-cherishing tells us what is best for me is what is quick and easy, quick and easy.
The quick, easy, distracting way to be happy, the easy happy now mentality. And the more we follow that self and self-cherishing only thinks about the present moment. It doesn’t think about the consequences of our actions later on in this life or concerning other future lives. It doesn’t think about the effect on other people. It just the things about me now.
I am suffering now, so the suffering has to stop now quickly, easily. I have to be happy now quickly, easily. And whatever makes me happy quickly and easy now is good. And even in extreme forms, even when we know if I do such and such, this will be good for me. And I’m not even talking about, you know, spiritual stuff, just ordinary worldly things.
If I was to do this, this will make me happy or this will be good for me. But oh, this thing that I could do, it would be good for me. It was very difficult to do, and it would take too much of your time. So So the self-cherishing thought cheats us all the time. And also, when in in in relation to the original topic, Why do we have friends and strangers?
Is if you check the person we label friend and, yeah, everyone was a stranger at some point, and then we meet someone. And if that person in the moment we meet them And all of this happens in, basically, in one moment or in a very short time, and then we tend to fix on that, and this person becomes a permanent friend, a permanent stranger, permanent enemy. And so we behave in the same way to the friend, to the stranger at the end of the surprisingly perpetuate those same experiences. And our self-cherishing is telling us, you know, to be this very ordinary, limited person. So the more we call it, the more we reinforce that.
I couldn’t possibly like this stranger. I couldn’t possibly be nice to this enemy. But we can. We have this potential. But we listen to the self-cherishing thought because it says do what’s, you know, easy, quick now.
To be happy now instantly, easily, the more we create the mind that cannot bear any difficulty. And the longer the difficulty lasts, the more unbearable it is with then you don’t think about the consequences. And when the self-cherishing is really strong, that’s what happens. You read so many So there are two kinds of self-cherishing. The one I just described is the gross the very gross form, which is completely negative.
It leads us to engage in all sorts of negative actions and it acts to prevent us. It makes it difficult to when we listen to the self-cherishing thought to engage in virtuous actions. So the self-cherishing doesn’t even allow us to practice the Dharma. If we do, then it gets caught up with the eight worldly concerns and just being concerned with worldly happiness, fearing suffering, being concerned about getting stuff, fearing not getting things, concern about craving a good reputation, fearing a bad reputation, craving praise and fearing criticism, and the more we can get caught up in those things, the more we engage in negative actions, and so even our Dharma practice, it gets distorted. But there is a more subtle kind of self-cherishing, which is I don’t know if this gets confusing, but it’s a virtuous state of mind.
Is in my mind that practices the Dharma, but it’s only concerned about practicing the Dharma basically for my own benefit so that I can get a good rebirth, so that I can eventually achieve get out of saṃsāra and experience the bliss of nirvana. So someone following that subtle self-cherishing will cultivate love and compassion for others, Mainly, well, just put this in a very gross way, one develops a wish for others to be happy and not to suffer because these minds are gonna benefit me. And if I don’t, if I’m not kind compassionate and patient with others, I will generate, you know, my negative thoughts to others will cause suffering to me. So I have to be kind and compassionate to others for my own benefit. But to achieve enlightenment, we we to achieve a good rebirth, to get out of saṃsāra, we have to give up the gross self-cherishing.
Everyone has to do that. To achieve enlightenment, we have to renounce the subtle self-cherishing, which is just concerned about practicing the Dharma ultimately for me. So that I can become an arhat. Any questions? And before going on, I I should have defined in both in Buddhism, the terms love and compassion mean because I think they have many different meanings in our culture.
But the the Sanskrit word that’s trans that we translate it in the English word love actually has the meaning of being. It is a state of mind So in the case of others, love for others is wanting them to be happy, not because it’ll make me happy, not because of them for me. It is just simply wanting So when while you continue to make me happy, I will love you. If you stop making me happy, I will stop loving you. So this is not love.
This is attachment. This attachment is all about oneself whereas genuine love is about, that way in the other. And also, in in the Buddhist context, when we say love is wishing self or others to have happiness, we’re not referring to well, a very primitive form of love is wishing them worldly happiness, but from a Buddhist point of view, even worldly wishing the other to have perfect happiness rather. And then and then and then also, genuine love, as it’s understood in the Buddhist context, is when you say it is the mind wanting self or others to have happiness, it’s particularly also understanding that that happiness has causes. So one wants oneself and others to have those causes.
Or in other words, if we develop real love for ourselves, we will want to create the causes of happiness for ourselves. We recognize there are causes that we have to create and not other people. Some someone else can’t create the causes for happiness for ourselves. We have to do it. So real love for our self is wanting to do that and being determined to do so.
Whereas self-cherishing just wants me I wanna be happy. So everyone has to make me happy. I don’t have to do anything. I’m just waiting for the whole world to make me happy. That’s what self-cherishing is.
So we think we love ourselves, but we just have a lot of self-cherishing in those cases. But when it comes to actually creating the causes for happiness, we’re not willing to do it because it’s too long because we just won’t be happy now. So love for others is also wanting them to create the causes for happiness, for themselves. And because we want them to do that, love for others involves wanting to help them create those causes. We can’t, you know, create those causes, but what we can do is help them do so, encourage them, not force them, skillfully so it’s, you know, very, very skillfully encourage people to support in creating the causes, helping them know what the causes are, reminding them, and this is not you know, lecturing them doesn’t mean they’re not.
And so and with compassion. Compassion is the mind wanting self and others not to suffer, and the deeper levels of suffering and compassion involve having a deeper understanding of what suffering really is, that suffering is not just a obvious physical or mental pain, but there’s much more subtle suffering. We think of as happiness is a subtle kind of suffering because that happiness doesn’t last. And also genuine compassion is wanting self and others to create the causes to be free of suffering and to be willing to help to create those causes. And in both cases of developing genuine love and compassion, it’s not something that is restricted just to one or two or a few people that you love, a few people that don’t love others.
Great love and great compassion are states of mind that encompass everything, whether they are of course, from the side of others, other people from their side can be kind to us, can be friendly to others, to us. Some people can be unfriendly and negative towards us, and some people from their side can be indifferent to us. But from our side, we can. We don’t have to respond in the same way. We have the potential to love everyone, to wish everyone, to wish our friends happiness, wish strangers happiness, wish even the enemy So that’s how much?
So just very briefly there’s not enough time, but anyway very briefly, Asaṇga’s method of generating bodhicitta on the basis of cultivating equanimity. So in the Mahāyāna tradition, equanimity is cultivated not just for the sake of benefiting oneself but realizing that in order to awaken this great love, great compassion for all sentient beings, wanting all beings to to have happiness, wanting all beings to be free of suffering, then I have to stop just focusing on a small group, focusing my good energy and concern on a small group of people, having aversion to others and being indifferent to everybody else. I need to, you know, free my mind of those limitations for the sake of others. So I have to develop equanimity because that starts to free my potential to experience love and compassion and reduces my potential to develop aversion, and hatred, and so on to others. So Asaṇga’s method of developing bodhicitta is called the seven causes and one effect technique, and the first cause of generating bodhicitta in the the determination to achieve enlightenment according to Asaṇga’s method is recognizing that every sentient being has been.
So this is quite difficult to do. This is something we can train the mind, meditate on more and more. So the basic thing is the basis for developing that realization is recognizing that we have a mind which is formless, it’s beginningless. Our mind has always existed, nothing can create a mind. Our body was created by our parents, but physical matter can’t create our mind.
Only something the effect determines that it depends on the nature of the cause. So physical matter is completely different in its nature from mind, so we cannot create one. The only thing that can create mind is something that has the same nature, and the only thing that has the same nature is mind. Over from It’s not the same mind that’s based on. It’s a continuum.
Yesterday’s mind. Why do we have this this year’s mind? Because it’s carrying on from last year’s life. Why do we have the mind this year this life? Because it’s carrying on.
It is a continuum in the last life going back and and back without any beginning. And once someone’s been your mother, she doesn’t stop being your mother. People can stop being your friend, but they can’t stop being your mother. Someone has given birth to you, they’ve given birth to you. Can’t say that never happened.
It never happened. That it happened. So that’s the other thing, your mother. So different body, but continuing in the same stream of consciousness. So on the basis of understanding that, that itself is not the first cause of generating bodhicitta, but on the basis of understanding and developing the belief, the faith that every single being has been our mother, then first cause of generating of bodhicitta is then training your mind to recognize, to think that when you see someone, think and hear about someone, to think this is my mother rather than this is my, you know, this is a human, this is a dog.
This is a. This is you we can’t see the other beings in the other realms, but, anyway, other things from other realms. Rather than thinking that or rather than thinking when we see human beings, this is a friend. This is a stranger. This is family.
We think this is my mother. But not just think it or just say the words that we have to believe. When when we can do that, that’s the first one. In Asaṇga’s method, this is the first cause of generating the bodhicitta. And the reason for that is comes with the second cause of generating bodhicitta is because mothers have been very kind.
Actually, as I I mentioned at the beginning of every talk, if you remember what I was saying, all sentient beings have been very kind to us. Now our existence totally depends on everything. Everything about us depends on the existence of sentient beings and so on. Very kind of these sentient beings who fertilized plants so that we can eat. It’s very kind.
They all the time. And much of the time because of our self-cherishing, we don’t even notice it. We just take it for granted. But why does Asaṇga emphasizes remembering that every sentient being has been our mother? Because every sentient being it also follows that every sentient being has been our father, brother, sister, best friend countless times.
Every sentient being has been time in saṃsāra for every sentient being to have saved our life. It’s been time in saṃsāra for every sentient being to have sacrificed their life for us, which is incredibly kind. But why but many, many times. So thinking like that, we should should be able to generate if we believe it, you know, a nice feeling towards other people. Most of us, I think, hopefully, like our mother.
We have a basically good relationship without that mother. And when you think of so the tradition is in the meditation is to think about your own mother and try to recall all the ways she’s been kind to you from birth And and then from from then on, our mother did so many things, you know, feeding us to keep her awake. She looked after us. We kept her awake when she put us to sleep. That’s very common.
And feeding us, washing us, clothing us, teaching us So it’s really good to remember all those things, all the different ways our mother took care of us, but not just to feel affection for her mother of this life. The purpose of it is although that’s good, but to then realize actually every sentient being did those things when they were like, everyone. Everyone. Every Everyone. Everyone did it.
Many times. Many, many, many times. And whenever you see a mother doing something really sweet with their children, you think So that leads to developing this wish to repay that kindness, to cultivate that kindness, and that leads to developing great love and great compassion and realizing that how you know, you think, how can I repay that kindness? And you think, you know, or what what could I what could I offer or say or do to my mother of this life to repay her kindness? And, of course, if we give our mother a box of chocolates, she would say, oh, oh, how thoughtful, probably she’s very happy.
But does that repay all the kindness she’s given us? Not really. Especially since she’s been our mother many times. So what would repay that kindness? What would that one?
And then one can think, So that’s how one can start to cultivate great love and great compassion, especially recognizing that although our mother may be her life may be okay, she isn’t enlightened. Yeah. Okay. And extending it to everybody Because even though there are people, there are people who are enemies, who hate us, want to kill us, all do all sorts of terrible things to us, especially in that world now there are always disturbed people, terrorists. Actually, all those people have been our mothers.
All those people have Buddha nature, and they’re creating the cause for unbelievable suffering for themselves So the more one cultivates great love and great compassion, one can then generate the next cause of generating bodhicitta which is called the great wish or what is also called universal responsibility, which is this amazing thought that I alone will free every sentient being from suffering. I alone by myself will lead every sentient being to experience happiness. But what distinguishes this great wish and sense of universal responsibility is the thought I alone will do it. And it could sound like a very egotistical or egomaniacal way of thinking, but the point is, I think, that it’s just cultivating an even stronger form of love and compassion. But one isn’t satisfied just to let other Buddha many other Buddhas do the work, but one gets this incredible sense of urgency that I have to do it because everyone has been kind to me so only I If someone is kind to me, I have to repay that kindness.
So if someone else is kind to that person, it doesn’t end my obligation, my sense of having to repay that kindness. So the more you think one cultivates the idea that I am responsible to repay all the kindness that I’ve received, So in five minutes, I’m gonna describe Śāntideva’s method of generating. On the basis of equanimity. Yeah. Yes.
So first main cause of Śāntideva method of generating bodhicitta. Yeah. I think it’s easier in some ways than Asaṇga’s method is to develop the mind equalizing oneself with others. Because even if we develop equanimity where we sort of have basically equal feeling towards others rather than being close to some, indifferent to most and having aversion to some others, even if we develop equanimity to everyone else, because of our self-cherishing, we still think, I am so special, I am different, and my wish for happiness is more important. In other words, my suffering, my need to be free of suffering is greater than others.
But what we have to realize, ourselves as human beings. Many, many differences. There’s differences between human beings and animals, between human beings and creatures and so on. But if we focus on those differences, that can act as a condition for all our negative thoughts towards others, you know, attachment to some that feel similarity to or we like those differences. We have aversion to other differences so on.
There can be fear and prejudice and all sorts of things by focusing on the differences between ourselves and others. But if we focus on what is similar or the same, then we feel a connection with another person for another living. And when we feel a connection, then it is possible to feel love and compassion. If if we don’t feel a connection with another being, we can’t love them or have compassion for them because there’s no sense of connection. And by focusing on all the differences, this is what happens.
So the in the meditation of developing this mind that equalizing self with others, there’s many points to think of, there’s no time to go into them except just two essential points, which is that, you know, it is the essential thing to meditate on. It’s very simple, but very important, very beneficial, which is if you look around if if we just take, well, human beings for a start, so many differences between us. We do so many different things, And if but if we so if you focus on that external situation, then all sorts of different thoughts can arise in the mind. But if you investigate in the motivation why do people do the things they do? Some people do very virtuous things.
Some people do very non virtuous things, stupid things, intelligent things, bizarre things. Why do they do them? They do them just to be happy. The only reason people do things is just to be happy. Just like people.
Why do you do the things you do? Next cause of bodhicitta is recognizing how bad the self-cherishing thought is. So I’ve already explained that a little bit. You just check, you know, all the bad things, the negative, anything you’re you’re willing to admit, this was bad thing. I said this or did this or thought this.
Look behind what motivated and you’ll discover what was Next cause of bodhicitta, the exchanging of self with others, is seeing the benefits of cherishing others. Actually, the more we follow self-cherishing, the more we’re creating the causes of suffering for ourselves. It looks like self-cherishing will make us happy, but in reality it causes us suffering because as a result of self-cherishing, we engage in negative actions, a karmic result of suffering. So we focus on me, we ignore others, but actually we end up creating a cause of suffering for ourselves. Whereas when we cherish others, focus is on other people.
But how do you cherish other people? How can you cherish other people? The only way by developing love towards them and compassion for them, being tolerant, patient, persevering, and generous, kind, and understanding. In other words, And by developing that mind, seeing the benefits of cherishing others more and more and more, one will want to cherish others more and more, one will train to cherish others more and more, and this will lead to wanting them to experience perfect everlasting happiness free of suffering, and that will lead to the understanding that the only way I can do that is to be able to help Many people are so good. Yes.
So we’ll we’ll take a break. No. No. The new system is right and the discussion groups with tea, coffee, and biscuits. Right?
So people would like to make something to drink and gather in their groups. There are other questions over there. Mark has handouts. There’s a couple of handouts for each person.