Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 17-minute talk, Ven Robina Courtin opens with a personal account: how to properly care for a dying or newly deceased person, treating the room as sacred space and recognizing when consciousness has left the body. She then explores what happens after death — the disorienting intermediate state (bardo), a dream-like condition where consciousness, driven by attachment and karma, seeks rebirth. Karma ripens at the moment of death to determine whether rebirth will be fortunate or difficult. Consciousness is drawn toward new parents; human rebirth is extraordinarily rare, often called winning the lottery. She addresses contemporary questions about IVF, cloning, and genetic selection, and illustrates with Lama Yeshe, a meditation master who maintained conscious control of his mind even as death approached.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 07 DAR 2003 06 21.mp3
UUID: 859aa32c-63aa-4f42-9f72-cd81b28e94f3
Teacher: Ven Robina Courtin
Collection: y Death and Rebirth (Ven Robina Courtin)
Date: 2003-06-21
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 17.2 minutes
Words: ~3,478
You know. I’ve just said when we left, we were gonna have him in the room, we thought, and just play the CD on repeat all the time. So it’d be enough this energy there. But they wouldn’t let they wouldn’t let us do that. We had to put him in the fridge.
So then he compromised by letting us have the CD on in the fridge. So we thought, oh, that’s good. Blessings for all the other dead bodies too, you know? So I don’t know. Anyway, all I know is I wasn’t there the next day.
Had to go, but they took him again the next day. They let him have us again the next day in the room. And I think Tova, his daughter, said that still it seemed like he was still there because they were doing it very gently, so it was okay, you know? So they had more pujas and things. So the ideal scenario is if you can be at home to it’s like treating it treating this person with the absolute respect even though they’re unconscious.
One of the common things we always do with dead people and we talk about them in front of them and have, you know, a rabbit on and go blah blah blah. That’s really inappropriate. It’s to treat it almost like a like a holy place, know, to have only what’s going on in there to be very peaceful and appropriate for their for their benefit, you know. And if you’re gonna be crying and emotional, do it outside because because their minds are more sensitive. You can be very, you know, susceptible to all kinds of energies happening.
And then, of course, let’s say if they’re Buddhist, we would do various prayers because at some level it’s all going in It’s kind of it’s beneficial for them. But mainly to keep it very appropriate, very strong, clear, comfortable, appropriate energy in the room. You know? Keep all your own rubbish out of there. That’s the most important thing.
And then when the time when you’ve, let’s say, seen that the mind has left, then it’s fine. Then do whatever you have to do. It just doesn’t matter. You know? So how would you know the mind is there?
Well, okay. That’s one of the things that I have found quite helpful. You see you feel it warm, you know? And it’s interesting. I’ve talked to many people who’ve worked hospitals like nurses and doctors who say you really just know when the person’s gone.
Even then there’s a difference, you know? That can be a bit intuitive perhaps. But more precisely, there’s that that feeling. Or, you know, if you’re a Tibetan Buddhist, you’d consult a lama who’s let clairvoyant advice, you’d trust. But it’s usually after two days.
It would never be longer than two days, very rarely. So you can say, you know, leave them for two days and you’re pretty certain they’re probably gone, you know? So they’d be known. Yeah. But even if you weren’t certain about that, after two days, you know pretty much it’s fine, you know.
Two days is what they say usually. Well that’s it. One I mean if there are Hindus I don’t know what the Hindu rules are about how they do but Buddhist you wouldn’t do that until after two days. Quickly as possible. Well, maybe that’s the Hindu view, the Buddhists would say you wouldn’t do that because you’d be disturbing the mind, you know?
That’s what they say. I understand. Yes. Of course. Now the whole Buddhist view, this is Amy’s question, it can be very disturbing and so even moving the body roughly.
So for example, she goes, okay, now for holy beings, for those who are really meditators or really have controlled this whole process, is how they talk that you can do, Lama Yeshe, for example, you know, the lama the founder of this center and of the FPMT, he and one of the main teachers of Lama Zopa and my teacher, he died when he was forty nine in nineteen eighty four. And he died in a hospital in Los Angeles, and he was said to be a very high practitioner who had done all these practices and was able to control this process, right? And so he died, he had a bad heart, and he died, and even they gave him resuscitation and things, but it didn’t help. And so, because he was a meditator, it seemed to be okay. And then even so, when he died, he passed you know, he stopped breathing at dawn.
Lama Zopa was with him, had permission from the hospital to allow him to go to another room, so they kept him they’ve had him on a trolley, you know, took him to the other room, quiet. He all the students sat around, and he med you know, Lama was so called meditating all day. And and these meditators, these yogis can stay in their body for up to ten days, more than that. You’ve heard stories. I’ve heard stories, and I’ve seen photos actually.
One meditator, a friend of Lama Yeshe, and these guys, they had this power actually. It’s lunchtime. They had this power completely controlled over their moment, and we’ll talk about it more as we go along. Through using meditation, they can access these subtle levels with absolute control and they can leave their body when they wish, can get born where they want, all of this, you know. So Lama Yeshe was said to be one of these great practitioners, and after twelve hours, think, or ten hours in this room actually, was interesting.
One of my friends was they were all there meditating, and my friend Chuck was there, and he thought he saw Lama’s head move just slightly at some point. And then he thought to himself, oh, no. It’s hallucination. But then at that moment, Lama Zopa turned to Geshe-la and said, Lama Yeshe’s meditation is now over. Meaning there was that slight movement when the consciousness left.
You know, it left through the crown chakra or something. That’s how they say. So it was interesting, I thought. So someone like, okay, for a normal person, I’ll just finish this briefly. For a normal person who hasn’t practiced, but let’s say who’s anybody, whether they’ve practiced or not practiced, but this death process is the same for everybody.
It can be very quick if, like, say, a violent death or it can be very slow if you just die naturally, you know, but the same process occurs. And the thing is, what happens then, when the consciousness does leave, this very subtle consciousness leaves the body, and then it’s sort of like it takes a mini rebirth if you like, saying like that, or if you like it wakes up this time in what is equivalent to a dream state, and they call that the intermediate state. But experientially, it’s just like a dream state. Meaning, you know, in a dream, it’s kinda weird. You fly.
You you do all these strange things. You don’t have much control over it. You know, it could have been a great dream, but you can’t kind of do it again. And or it can be very fearful because the mind is more subtle in dreams, and this is the subtle consciousness functioning in dreams. And it’s also linked to a subtler physical energy.
It’s sort of like they talk about the wind energy and the mind rides on the wind. So how come like in dreams you can fly and move and do strange things? Because this you’re linked to this subtle physical energy, this wind energy they talk about that is sort of yeah. Somehow that’s how they talk, you know. So in the in the bardo or the intermediate state after death, it’s like that.
And it’s kind of fearful, quite intense, like a dream, kind of fearful. You don’t have any control, but also it’s extra fearful because you’ve, you know, you’ve you’ve actually died. You’ve no longer got a basis for any eye. So in a sense, it’s this strong kind of grasping, primordial grasping for another basis, for another eye, you know, which is this energy that propels us from rebirth to rebirth. This is sort of like as long as the ego is going, it’s like this motor that propels us, you know?
And so it can be quite intense. So if let’s say at the time of your death, because at the time of your death, before you stop breathing, your the karma that will determine your future life will ripen, the karmic seed. So they talk about it and I know one book, very interesting book called death, intermediate state, and rebirth. I don’t know if it’s down there, but it’s a very helpful little book describing this process. Quite small.
Edited by Jeffrey Hopkins, that Buddhist professor. In there, as his holiness, the Dalai Lama wrote forward. And as he said, you know, when if you if you the karma is a negative karma that ripens and this is just a natural law. There’s nobody deciding. You know?
Nobody’s up there judging us or rewarding us or punishing us. This is a natural law, Buddha says. You know? It’s in this sense we create ourselves. So let’s just say, you know, you’ve you’ve misused your life and you’ve, you know, you’ve wasted this precious human rebirth by following your anger and your attachment and your jealousy and your pride and your this and your that and all the usual stuff, you know?
You don’t have to be Hitler to create negative karma. We all do it, you know? It’s just the way humans are, not to be guilty about it. Then if there’s a prevalence of negative energy, that will be the karma that will ripen and that will throw your consciousness as they say. They call this the throwing karma.
It will throw your consciousness. Your consciousness by now will be on by the time it leaves the body, it’ll be on autopilot and go that karma will cause it to find a suffering rebirth. Know, rebirth in the womb of a lion or an animal or a spirit. There’s different things that Buddha talks about and we can talk about more about this later. Let me finish.
But if there’s a positive karma ripens, which in our case we can deduce that it did, this will put our mind on autopilot. We’ll go into the Bardo and then eventually we’ll see our new know, they say you have the clairvoyant vision. You’ll see your new parents in sexual union, assuming you weren’t, you know, conceived in a petri dish or something. You know, if it’s an old fashioned kind of rebirth, how they describe it in the how they describe it in the text, you you know, you’ll see your new parents. You know, because you have this strong karma between them will now ripen.
And you know, if you died in Australia, you’re gonna be reborn in Africa, you don’t climb on a plane to get there. Your consciousness will just be there, you know, which is interesting view about the, you know, the sense of space and time. If next instant you can be in Africa, it shows, you know, what does space and time mean, you know? It’s interesting. It’s a it’s a relative concept for human realm.
Let’s say, you know, that and then what happens is your consciousness will go rushing towards, like propelled very powerfully to go towards that egg and sperm. Now what’s totally fascinating and they say this in the text, the Dalai Lama quotes it, if you’re gonna be born and I think this is my own now, by the way, this now is my little statement, my comment, my own personal comment. I think this description I’m about to give you is the description of a heterosexual rebirth. This is my comment, okay, just now, what I said then. And it’s a logical speculation if you’ll see what I’m saying.
If you hear what I’m saying. If you’re gonna be born a girl, they say, you’re hugely attracted to your daddy. It’s very interesting. Mean, this desire, it’s attachment that even causes our rebirth, Buddha says. It’s not all some holy special thing, believe me.
And you go rushing towards that egg and, you know, to the mommy and daddy. Honestly, say with the desire to have sexual union with your daddy. This powerful attachment ripens. The energy of attachment is very strong. It’s what keeps us in Samsāra.
And you go rushing towards your daddy. And when you get there, you’re really annoyed because you’re just this little nothing thing. What can you do, you know? So that sort of like an aversion or anger arises which then causes you to recoil and sort of exit out of the bardo and get born into the into the egg and sperm. So that’s how you that’s the first moment of birth.
I mean, what a way to start, you know? It’s kinda dramatic. That’s how they talk in the text, honestly. Then if you’re gonna be born a boy, it’s the opposite. You’re attracted to your mommy, you know?
It’s very interesting, isn’t it? Attachment is what propels you into even in your rebirth, you know? Anyway, take it or leave it. But they say you can learn to have these experiences, but you learn it, you know, when you get really when you’re high practitioner, can see all this. So then off you go.
Off you start. Little Amy, there she is. Amy got born. What happens with IVF when people now choose the sex of their baby? I know.
It’s oh, can they choose the sex of their baby? They can now. How do they do that? You mean they can decide to have a girl or a boy? Yes.
How do you decide that? Genetic sorting. They’re gonna choose a Oh yeah, you don’t choose to make a boy, you choose a boy. Well that’s fine, that’s easy. Now that’s interesting from this point of view, I don’t know how it would be because if let’s say Amy was in, you know, coming out of the past life when she was Fred and she’s in the Bardo and you know, let’s say her daddy had given his sperm to somebody and had it injected into the womb as opposed to the old fashioned way of injecting it, then you know it’s interesting what would you see, I don’t know what quite you’d be attracted to, I don’t know it’s interesting.
They don’t discuss this in the text because it didn’t occur then, you know. Fascinating, isn’t it? Is it? In what way? I just think it’s under the condition.
Really? Interesting. Very interesting to see. Absolutely. I think that Dalai Lama could discuss this point somewhere.
I can’t remember what he said now. What about Well, it’s also well, see, cloning’s fascinating because we in the West think we actually are making we are we think in the West we make babies. But Buddha says it’s just not you don’t make a baby. All you do is provide the physical condition for which a consciousness can into which a consciousness comes. So all that all that all that do is cloning, is you’re providing a condition that looks like identical to the other condition into which two consciousnesses will take birth.
They’re two separate consciousnesses. You didn’t make them. They’re probably the couple of the scientists who got born as Daisy and her clone. No, it goes into the intermediate state first and that can last up to seven weeks, seven human weeks. Can.
Can. It can last an instant or up to seven weeks depending. So usually they’d say it takes long. You hang around a bit in the bardo to get a human birth because it’s, you know, I I remember reading in a very nice little baby book. It is like a baby book but it’s very nice.
It’s called the Tibetan The Art of Tibetan Parenting. It’s published by Wisdom, Wisdom Publications. And it says in there something like, and I’m paraphrasing, that at the time of two humans,, a male and a female having sex, there are billions they say of consciousnesses all hovering around desperate to get in who’d recently died. Obviously not just from the human realm but from other realms as well because there’s very few human rebirths available for the number of beings but you know look at the number I mean you read some of those animal shows look at some of those animal shows they have millions of babies a year one of these little creature is pumping out babies you know so it’s easy to get one of those births there no worries you know you get a mozzie birth in two seconds. There’s no hanging around.
human one, gotta kinda hang around, know? It’s really kinda like winning the lottery. That’s what they say. Anyway, with that as a conclusion, why don’t we have lunch? Go on, darling.
Yes, Amy what? Oh okay if Amy was she’s Amy so here’s Amy yeah that’s Amy so let’s say Amy was aborted okay that means there’s the no no I use the name I was talking to Amy because I yeah so Amy looks like she’s the most recent one out that’s all so okay so what would have happened would be that you know due to Amy’s past past karma, which of course we’ll talk about, due to her past killing, she first of all, due to her past merit, got the human got the human womb. She won the lottery, but she had the karma called experiences similar to the cause, the karma of killing which is that she got killed. So she only lasted a couple of months in the womb, you know, she didn’t even get out. And I’ve heard figures actually, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s true, that more humans who get conceived no.
More humans I can’t say you’ll you’ll get it. More humans who get conceived die before they get born than those who get born. It’s interesting. You think about it. So it’s amazing even you get born.
It’s incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Will. And we’ll have lunch.
So why don’t we have an we’ll do that after lunch. So why don’t we just do a little mini dedication prayer? You can can sing along if you got a little you open your yellow page. There’s two little prayers there called dedication. Let’s do two.
And the one is just what the first one, just paraphrasing, is just rejoicing that we’ve sat here for a couple of hours. All these thoughts have been seeds planted in our mind. So we make aspiration they grow as quickly as possible in the development of our amazing potential for the sake of all beings. And the second one is just making the aspiration of compassion, bodhicitta, grow and grow. So let’s do a quick little contemplation of your lunch.
Okay? How to have your lunch is a way we would say. You first think, and we’ll talk about this later, you first think that it doesn’t have an inherent nature of carrots, bread, this, that, you know. It’s just karmic appearance as we say. It doesn’t have a real nature.
It’s inherent it’s not it’s it’s empty of existing from its own side. So to the extent that has any meaning, just kinda get a bit of space from it, you know? And then second one, think of it as oceans of nectar. Not just your one little box of sandwiches or something, you know? It’s oceans and this blissful nectar.
The third thing you think, and Lama Zopa says the most important, is you just think, you imagine offering it. Just your mind. You know, you imagine offering it. All the holy beings, all the suffering sentient beings throughout the universe, you imagine them all. The whole universe full of beings, all experiencing the pleasure of receiving this food that we’re offering.
Just think this in your mind, you know, just casually. Then it completely transforms the action as Lama Zopa says. Just do a little blessing prayer. And then as Lama Zopa say, once you’ve blessed it and offered it like this, the bigger your stomach, the better. So please enjoy your lunch.
So see you in an hour and a half or so. Okay? Please enjoy.