Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 41.5-minute Q&A, Ven Robina Courtin helps retreat participants examine karma and motivation through real questions. Opening with a charged contemporary question—do the 9/11 bombers, who acted from devotion to God, face karmic consequences?—she unpacks the four conditions that complete a karmic action: intention, the living object, the deed, and rejoicing. Her core teaching: motivation matters more than claimed intention. We say we act from compassion while anger and aversion hide underneath. Through stark examples—Afghanistan bombing, her own street fight, a Tibetan monk enduring Chinese persecution—she shows how practice transforms self-deception into clarity and victim consciousness into responsibility. She explores collective karma, purification through hardship, and why genuine compassion differs utterly from righteous rage. For practitioners already engaged in retreat.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 10 2002 01 19 BYT.mp3
UUID: 8e273e89-74be-4206-b944-e016dac65c00
Teacher: Ven Robina Courtin
Collection: y Be Your Own Therapist (Ven Robina Courtin)
Date: 2002-01-19
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 41.5 minutes
Words: ~8,979
Doesn’t bring vindictiveness. You know? You see my point? I do. Someone else down here.
Please speak. Yes. Yes. That’s right. Exactly.
Let me talk about this. Very interesting point. Thirty. Yes. Exactly.
Mhmm. Motivation. Yep. Yeah. Go on.
I understand exactly. Let me explain. It’s a very good point. Thank you. She’s pointing out that the the the perpetrators had a very good motivation.
You know, did it for God, and I completely understand that. And that I said before that motivation is what counts, but then I’m saying they’re gonna have suffering as a result, so she’s confused. And I understand your point. So may I explain? This is where we have to look at that there are four there are four conditions in place that need to be in place for a karma that we do to bring its appropriate results.
Right? So generally speaking generally speaking, we can say, can’t we, in this world, we can generally speaking see that the reason in look into our own minds to find this. The general the usual reason we kill something is we either don’t like it or we wanna eat its flesh. Would you agree? Would people agree with these statements I’m making?
Okay. I don’t care if you do. I’m gonna say them. Okay. So generally speaking, we so that’s why we can all deduce that killing is wrong.
We get all the world cultures all feel this. And even without it being religious or philosophical, you just look at little ants, how they feel when you’re self threatened, and it runs away. Why? It doesn’t want to get killed. You know?
It’s something so primordial in all of us. We don’t want to be harmed. Okay. So for this reason, Buddha would say that in general now, to kill is a is a negative action. Now we can also see that generally, we do analyse the motivation, because you’re right, we can see the motivation isn’t mostly virtuous.
Now, okay, we have examples, and here’s a perfect example. It is very true. I remember reading in the New York a long article recently about, these suicide bombers and their whole philosophy, and it’s absolutely true. They’re trained to go to that position. You can imagine those guys in that plane.
They were thinking only of God and paradise, and no doubt there’s seventy two virgins. I’m not being rude, you know, at the time of that time they bombed the two buildings. They’re not thinking of causing suffering, even though that’s what they’re obviously doing. So it’s a very interesting point. So their motivation clearly is pure.
So, okay, Buddhism says so the first one okay. Now so the four actions that have the four conditions that have to be in place in our mind and in the external environment for an action that we do to to be a complete action that will be sown in the mind that if not pulled out, eventually ripen as suffering in lower realm rebirths. This is the way they talk about karma. The first one, the most important, is the intention to do the action. So just think even of killing a little ant, you know, something innocuous.
There has to be the intention to kill. Now the intention is is the meaning almost of karma. It’s really the power of the mind so strong, the intention. Now the thing is and there are various sort of little subsections under that. These this is where they play the major role, and I’ll talk about those in a minute.
But intention to do it, I will kill that ant. The second condition that has to be in place for this action that you do of killing to become a throwing karma is the living ant. A living ant has to be there. A little kicking living ant has to be there. The third is you do the action, Stamp.
The fourth is you go, great. Now it’s dead. You rejoice and the action is complete. Now just crudely speaking, broadly speaking, those four conditions in place, that is that becomes a throwing karma, a karma that then causes your consciousness to take certain rebirths in in suffering lives because it’s complete action. Now the the really crucial ones are like the subdivisions of the intention.
Once the intention is there, then as we’ve said, the most important action into a condition is the motivation for the action, the reason for the action. Now it’s true, in the case of those two pilots, because of their philosophy, absolutely certain their reason is to go to heaven. Their reason is love of God. It’s true. But I think without trying to judge anybody, my feeling is along with that, because that’s their writings, that’s how they talk, and they absolutely say it straightforward.
They under they don’t deny it. Listen to Osama bin Laden’s words. They have this rage and hate for a certain group of people. Would you not agree with that, please? The person do you agree with that point?
Yeah. I agree with that point. Just just go one step at a time, please. Yeah. I agree with that point.
Yeah. So you haven’t read you haven’t heard Osama bin Laden’s words? I’m not criticizing the man now. Please. I’m not criticizing anybody.
I’m trying to look at this objectively like you are. So you’ve never read any of the writings of the Palestinians and the writings of Osama bin Laden or writings of the Muslim people? You’ve not read? So then you can see that there is probably anger there as well. Yes.
Okay. That’s all. I mean, that’s fine. So therefore, it’s not just I mean, Buddhism would say so let me just even I’m not finished the story yet. I’m giving different factors we have to look into to really try and understand.
This is an example, to judge those people, but to really look at our mind. You know? So this is the thing about motivation. The main thing in the upper part of their mind. It’s obvious.
They were thinking of God at that time. That’s how they trained. But the you know, but we can see in our own lives. We might say, I really mean well when I do something. You know?
I mean, I I really it really is for their sake. We have to stop that person doing something because it’s for their person we don’t like in the office who’s causing all the problem or the we had this all the time. We we say we mean well. Our words are compassionate. But if we really and this what we have to do, all of us, look into our minds, look into our hearts, we actually have strong aversion for that person.
We wanna stop them because we think what they’re doing is outrageous. We criticize them, and we in other words, we don’t really have genuine compassion. Because if you if you have genuine compassion for a certain person, let’s say let’s say, for a person you’re trying to harm. And this is a very unusual one. We never think this way.
And this is the point. Buddha would say, if you’re a very evolved person with compassion in your heart and you decide to kill somebody because they’re about to kill other people, the real reason you kill them isn’t so much compassion even for the people they’re trying to kill. Because that’s why people have wars right now. That’s nothing new. People have wars now because they have compassion for this group and they have hate for that group.
That’s not real compassion at all. That’s hate. Compassion is for that person you are about to harm because you cannot bear the thought of their future suffering if they do that action. So it’s compassion for that person. It’s like the compassion a mother has for her own junky kid who has tough love and who then puts them in jail or sends them off to the whatever.
Because why? Not because she hates her son, because she loves him and she does this strong action to prevent him from doing more harm to himself. That is an example of genuine compassion. And then you would definitely say any action that a person with that in their mind does, it is a correct action, even if the whole world criticizes it. But I think even from this what I’m not trying to criticize here.
There was definitely devotion in the minds of those people, in their hearts when they did that, but there was not compassion. No way. Their motive they were happy to kill, I mean, as many people as they could. They were all cheered and delighted. I’m not being rude here.
I’m just seeing what I’ve observed. I’m just trying to make it out. You know? I have no objection to all these people. I have no problem in my heart with them.
You know? None at all. But from their own writings, they all say. I mean, they’re completely clear about it. They’re not even pretending.
I mean, George Bush excuse me. I’m not I don’t dislike George Bush either. But people who mostly have wars will pretend there’s no hate in their heart. They’ll pretend it’s really for the benefit of others. But they’re full of rage, you know?
They’re so dishonest. Most of us are so dishonest. At least with these Muslims, I’m not being rude, they’re very honest in what they say. They love God, they believe it’ll get them to heaven, but they hate the infidels. It’s their job to kill every infidel.
Why? Because they’re destroying the Muslims. So that’s not called compassion. That’s called unbelievable rage and anger. I mean, this is my assessment.
You tell me if you think I’m wrong, please. Okay. So then so, anyway, let me still finish the story about karma. This is very interesting. One Tibetan lama and they very I mean, these Tibetan lamas, they’re said to have clairvoyance, all these things.
There’s a particular lama whom I know. He they very rarely talk about the results of karma. They never go on about, oh, I see this and I see that. Would be very arrogant. But in this interesting case, some reason this lama really was just very involved in this whole thing.
And it’s coming from compassion. I mean, they have great compassion. Right? There’s no question. But he said the karmic result for these two people, those two pilots — it’s interesting.
I I was very surprised when I heard it. The karmic result would be that they would get human life. Normally speaking for killing, straight to the lower realms is what they say in terms of karma. But they’d get a human life because there was virtue in their mind, mainly uppermost in their mind. The throwing karma was virtuous because they’re thinking of God.
But because the karma of killing humans was so strong, you know, and and this is one of the many factors as well. Sorry. Go back again. If you’ve the intention, underneath there, the other crucial one is motivation. Another crucial one is the habit to do it.
Now my feeling is people who are really caught up in, like, war and killing in this world have got a strong habit to kill. They’ve got the strong anger inside the mind, and they’ve got the habit of killing from having done it before. So when the habit is very strong, that causes the karma to be very heavy as well. My feeling in this case, you know. So this lama said they’d get a human life, hundreds of human lives, because of the virtue of their mind, the throwing karma, but they’d have the experience similar to the cause.
They would die like that in every one of those lives. And it’s in this way they’d use up the karma. That’s just his observation. Thought it was most interesting. Know?
Because, again just a sec. The point of this one again, I have to keep saying the point. You know? Buddha’s explanation is not that this is punishment. Nobody is deciding.
There’s no god or Buddha up there, Buddha says, who is deciding. Those are wicked people. They’re now gonna go get harmed like this. No one’s pulling the strings, Buddha says. All this is said to be is Buddhist the Buddhist observation of how things happen.
So there’s no sort of fairness or unfairness or not fair or bad person or good person. There’s none of that. It’s just as our mothers all taught us, virtue has its own rewards. Or we could do the flip side and say, non virtue has its own results too. And this is the Buddhist view of karma.
You know, I’m just talking about it. So any questions more? Yeah. That’s right. So this puts fills that It seems to be.
Because yeah. Negative karma. She’s saying there seems to be an obligation when there’s negative karma. But is good karma the same? You know?
And this is the point. It yes. Good if there’s negative karma to to kill, you needed a sentient being to kill, don’t you? And why? It’s because that sentient being has killed you.
This is the point why Buddhism would say there’s every reason for our hearts to break with compassion for all living beings because we are locked into this into this trip, harming being harmed, blaming, how dare you? I’m gonna do it back to you. All the Americans happily bombing happily believing they’re doing virtue. Buddha says everyone creating negative karma. Why?
Because they’re coming out of strong righteousness, strong anger. They deserve this. How dare they do this to us? Bomb. I mean, it’s gone.
We’ve to look more deeply. You We’re gonna have far more much more integrity to look far more deeply into our minds and really look at our responsibility. This is we’re so heavy about this. You know? But the thing is, with good or bad karma, it’s exactly the same.
If I’ve created the karma to continue to be generous because of past habit of being generous, I obviously need sentient beings to whom to be generous. And how come you get my money, darling? It’s because you have been generous in the past too. So you get the experience similar to the cause of being generous. You know?
So we and why is all this? Because look. Whom else do we create good or bad karma with but other sentient beings? We don’t go and kick walls and bomb walls and trees, and we do as well. We bomb sentient beings.
We love sentient beings. It’s sentient beings we have karma with. So if you do to be killed Yeah. That means somebody has to kill you. Sure.
And that’s because they you’ve killed them before. I went fishing one time, right, to please a boyfriend. Excuse me. He got him pulling him in like crazy. I didn’t get one.
Why? Even I had the intention to kill. The karma wasn’t there. There was no fish that had the karma at that moment in time to be killed by me, which means I didn’t have the karma to kill either. It works together beautifully.
Interdependence. All interdependence. This is the law of nature, Buddha says. No one makes this up, Buddha says. This is the law of nature.
But you had the intention, Venus, and you got something? Yeah. Definitely. In fact, you can say it was the intention to do something. There was the fish there.
I tried to kill it, and it didn’t die. That’s far heavier karma than there being no intention, a fish, and I kill it, and it dies. Because the intention is the power of the karma to you. For the fish, you know, that doesn’t care. He doesn’t get killed.
My fish didn’t get killed. Another fish didn’t get killed. But from the point of view of my karma, intention is the crucial point. Absolutely. That’s right.
What else? It’s a very interesting point, so please bring up all your unhappiness. Yep. Yes. Yes.
Yes. Sure. Yes. What happens if there are mixed intentions there? Of course.
I understand. No. I understand exactly. She’s using the example of, say, the mother who, out of kindness to her child, sends the child to prison. So I was using that example as an example of showing you can do something negative, but if it really comes from pure intention, well, that’s the point.
We’ve to look she said, what if there are mixed intentions? Well, that’s the thing for most of us. Very often, for most of us, there are always mixed. We can pretend so easily to ourselves that we mean well, you know, but underneath is all this other stuff that we just don’t wanna look at. So, I mean, maybe a mother, you know I mean, it’s it’s very hard.
Of course, mixed intents. If there are mixed intents, let’s say she says she’s really doing it for his sake, but actually she just can’t be bothered, she’s fed up with it, wants to get rid of him. Well, it’s I mean, the the karma is of whatever’s really in the heart. You can’t pretend by words. You know?
What’s really in the heart is what creates karma. What’s in the heart is what creates karma, not the empty words. Yes. Right. Whichever is the most strong.
It’s whichever seed is most strong is the one that is uppermost, which is the one that will bring the karmic result. It’ll be mixed result too, but that’s the main one. You know? So you can pretend with words that you’re doing something compassionate, but the real one is this anger. Then anger was the one that is uppermost.
It’ll bring the worst result. If it is mainly intent kindness, then kindness will bring the main result. But it’ll always be mixed because we can see this. So all all our emotions are so mixed up. Know?
They’re never very that pure one way or the other. You know? Is that what you mean? Yeah. It’s highly complex, you know, the way it’s of right because I’m trying to use a simple example.
That’s all. Somebody else? Yes. Just a sec now. Go.
I understand. Well Yeah. To to achieve that. I understand. Well, I mean, that sort of imply the the view that you’re saying there is that, you know, maybe if if if Hitler had another purpose, he said, if if people were there who needed to go to war to be killed and to kill and everything, that’s a bit sort of a dangerous way to talk about it.
It’s not so much need. Just because the the Buddhist view is just because the karmic imprint is there doesn’t mean you need to follow it. That’s the whole point of what practice is. This is where we begin to change. So once we’ve established that what I’m trying to do here, how karma works, then this is why we’re talking in these step by step a person who then wants who realizes they don’t want future suffering, they don’t want to continue to kill, they don’t want to continue to be killed, they don’t want to continue to be a dog or whatever, right, then you start to say, okay, I wanna get a handle on this, please.
So I then have to start looking into my mind. This is what practice is, is where you begin to put your money where your mouth is. So in my in my heart, I learned to look into myself, and I recognize I had anger, and I had this, and I’m a bit mean, I’m very that, the negative ones and the positive, I look at them all. Then I’ve got to look objectively and and really recognize and see from my own experience that what Buddha is saying is true, which is anger causes me suffering. It causes me to continue to be angry.
It causes me to harm others, which causes me to be harmed back by them in the future, which causes all the suffering. Do I want all of that? I have to look at this. This is the point. So I have to say no.
It’s obvious. So conclusion, the Buddha says, pull your finger out, Robina. Stop being angry, babe. So you don’t have to follow the karma. Not at all.
Okay. When karma’s really strong, we can look at it in terms of groups like, you know, like you’re saying, Nazis and and and Jews and things. The karma was very strong. It’s just kind of inexorable. You know?
Was so powerful. Just this explosion. You know? Look at the same in Afghanistan. Look at many things.
So but individuals, you can’t change group karma because all the groups together, all the people in the group have to decide, you know. But you can see individuals moment by moment in our own experiences. Every moment is an opportunity to purify some negative karma and not go against the usual thing, just follow not just go with the flow of the delusions, which is mostly how we spend our lives. That’s why learning to listen to this and think about this and think if this is the you know, how things are, then to analyze, do I want suffering? And the answer has to be no.
Do I want happiness? The answer is yes. So Buddha says, okay, babe, You can handle that. You can do it. Change the way you act.
Every time someone is harmful to you, don’t harm back. It sounds easy to say it. I know it’s outrageous. Whenever you have an opportunity to get angry, be patient instead. Don’t steal, give instead.
Know? This is how you change. This is the most obvious day to day in your face way of how you deal with life, how you really, really practice. You go against all the old habits. But this is, again, is not something we don’t know about.
When you decide to go on a diet, you know, what do you think you’re doing? You’re going against the old habit to keep stuffing yourself because you wanna be thin and handsome or whatever, and that’s perfectly fine. We’re talking relative now. Then we all know about changing habits. We have to now decide, I will only eat two pieces of chocolate cake.
I will go on this diet. I will not have that. We all know this. We’re doing it all the time. Well, that’s practice.
We’re in charge of it. You know? That’s how you go against your karma. So in answer to your point, does he did Hitler have another Hitler was simply part of it. He wasn’t like some god god figure who went out there and waved wands and made karma happen because it was good for the people.
It’s more just an it’s like it’s an in and of itself thing. It’s in a sort of like an in and of itself thing. All those people just blindly following their karma. They got born into Germany in the nineteen thirties. Some were called Nazis, some were called Jews, you know.
And each of them as a group, they weren’t Jews and Nazis whenever they harmed each other in the past. Who knows, like I said, a thousand lives ago, as who knows what kind of group of people? Due to karma now all coming back from all these different directions and different lives, boom, in the same place together, and karma ripens. So no one’s doing it with any kind of purpose, you know. It’s just kind of following their instincts.
everybody followed their dumb old instincts. That’s all. You know? Collective karma. No one’s doing it to anybody.
But they they were the ones who were generating the karma rather than just Hitler. He was just a part it. He was just part of it. Hitler was just a part of it. He was just one of he had the okay.
karma. It seems to me Hitler had the karma to be a very powerful person. There he was, the one he was the figurehead. Right? But every single person labeled Nazi or secret Nazi, you know, even some Americans, no doubt, who are sitting in their little kind of American.
They could have been agreeing one hundred percent with Hitler and not telling anybody in their heart believing it because they hate Jews. You know? Many, many people around the world, no doubt. So every single person who had that kind of mindset and who agreed with what Hitler did, who supported him, who rejoiced in his activities, They’re all part of that group, you know, okay, to different degrees because some of them went actually and did the job, others were just rejoicing. This is how we create very strong collective karma too.
Know, I think of America, let’s say, and, you know, Timothy McVeigh, whom everybody in America hated. Right? You can imagine the millions of people simultaneously rejoicing when he got killed. They all create collective karma to get some kind of suffering from that because the mind creates it, and they create it as a group. You know?
So they’re all part of it. Hitler was just the the figurehead, but he was — he was more part of it than all the rest because he did all the he was the one who who called the shots. All the little quiet Nazis sitting back just agreeing with him, they all participated. But the real one was he created the karma not just for killing himself, but he created the karma far worse karma because he said to kill. He bossed it all.
He ordered it all. So all the people who killed under him, he got the karma himself of killing millions of people. Whereas another person who might have killed ten, they just got the karma killing ten. You know? But he was the big boss.
So they say, for example, you know, the person who made the atomic bomb. Every person who died because of the atomic bomb and all the future stuff, the karma for that person. The person who said go you know, like, whoever the president was in America at that time who said drop it on Hiroshima. He got the karma of all those thousands of people dying, you know, that incredible suffering. You even tell someone to kill an ant for you because you don’t wanna kill an ant.
You get the karma of, two people killing. Sort of. It’s like that because you’re the one who’s more heavy because you said, well, you’ve got another person to create negative karma on your behalf. You know? Things like this.
That’s an interesting conversation, isn’t it? Why don’t we talk about why don’t we talk about good karma? Because we can’t we can not mind that. You know? How come people like you?
How come you get a million bucks or twenty even? How come people are loving to you? How come they you pick up the phone and you call for pizza and they deliver it to you? I mean, this is enough to make you weep with compassion at the thought of your past generosity. It’s so easy to get something these days, you know.
But you look at the people in Afghanistan, they’re gonna make many phone calls. They can’t get a pizza. Our good karma is so fantastic, you know. You can’t. Because everyone has to agree.
Yeah. I understand what you’re saying. Okay. I just said you can’t change group karma because everyone has to agree. What I mean by that is you can’t you can’t by one person wanting it to be different doesn’t change the result for that whole group.
The whole group together have to want it to change. So unless the entire collective Yes. Purifies their karma. Is every single one of them. Well, or even a majority who can be have kind of taken you know, be the influence, isn’t it?
I mean, we can all individually work away at it. I mean, like, there’s the Dalai Lama, you know, working away for forty five years to try and get the Chinese to stop messing up with his country. So he’s constantly trying to do, which eventually helps other people think that way and gradually builds up support. So there is advantage in trying to do something, but it doesn’t mean but he he hasn’t got the power to change the karma of all the Tibetans, you know, until that karma runs out. And even most of Tibetans are happy are mostly agreeing with the Dalai But this is why they say even when your mind is changing, you your karma is the karmic the amount of petrol you put in that tank has to run itself out now.
You can hasten it. See, this is the point. This is what’s interesting. Okay. What’s it?
This is where the Dalai Lama’s view. He doesn’t talk about karma much in the world because he’s trying to be like an ordinary person. You know? Oh, that sounds ridiculous. Do you get my point?
He doesn’t rabbet on about Buddhist karma. He has no point. You know? He just talks about compassion and not of and gives all logical worldly reasons why you shouldn’t harm everything, and they’re all perfectly sound. You know?
So, okay, you can see that what was I gonna say? God. I’m trying to distract myself. It’s ridiculous. I lost it completely.
Where were we? Dalai Lama. Collective karma. Okay. Trying to stop the collective karma.
Oh, yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right.
So, you know, the the usual way of the world is like, you know, the Americans now bombing Afghanistan. The usual view is that, you know, this all this violence comes, so you have to stop it. Because otherwise, you just can’t be the thought of being overrun by it. And but there’s the Tibetans being overrun for forty five years. Right?
I mean, one point six or one point two million people of the the six million murdered. Every monastery destroyed. The environment destroyed. The wild animals destroyed. And many people think the Dalai Lama is insane.
What is this man doing, quotes, allowing this to happen? You know? But this is the point. Well, the Dalai Lama is this is the Buddhist approach now. A couple of words into his mouth.
This is the Buddhist approach of understanding karma. That because of whatever actions it is that those group of people labeled now Tibetans have created long time in the past, one, and number two, because they haven’t purified that karma, because who’s clairvoyant? Who can see it coming? You know? We can’t.
So then the karma ripens like this big bomb. Now all the the Buddhist would be, if you then start fighting back, you might very well stop the Chinese. They could have maybe driven out the Chinese twenty years ago. Then you think, great. We succeeded.
But no, the Buddhist view says, you just created a few more eons of more wars in the future. That’s how they keep on going. So even though it looks so terrible putting up this all having your whole country destroyed, if you’re not fighting back and you learn to accept this karma, you don’t have anger, you let it all happen, you’re creating an even better result in the future, which is too painful for us to think about because we wanna do it now. You know? It’s the long term view all the time.
You know? It’s the long term view. So the best way to change collective karma is by not fighting back, by not being angry, by forgiving. You know? This is I always use this example.
One of these Tibetan monks, a friend of mine, he’s like a twin he was about seventeen when he became a monk in Tibet. He was brought up in a family of about thirteen kids and his mother and he said his mother and father decided to make many Tibetans. So they didn’t want Tibetans to run out. Know, was so nice. So they had thirteen kids, and he became a monk when he was seventeen.
He joined Sera Je, one of the big monasteries in Khlasa. And at that time, this is like in the eighties, right, when there were indeed, there were monks in the monasteries that were still very, very restricted. And this is eighty seven, and there was the first uprising since fifty nine in Tibet. Right? And it was all mostly monks and nuns who did it, these young, kind of revolutionary but devoted Buddhists, monks and nuns, who were up there demonstrating, and he was one of them.
So, you know, when we think of demonstrating, we usually think of violence and anger and rage and fury and all this kind of we just think that because we think that’s the energy you’ve gotta have to do on demonstrations. Hate, hate, hate. You know? But, no, that’s the point. So he got arrested, got tortured.
His head had his you know, his friend had his head blown off. He got he ran away. He went to Nepal. His father got murdered. His brother got murdered.
A whole bunch of stories, you know, about Tibetan suffering. Okay. So he’s telling me about it. And I know this boy. I’ve been living up in his monastery for a couple of years, and you could tell he was a very even, unassuming, ordinary kind of person.
You know? And I said he was sad when he was telling me, and I said, do you ever get angry? And he looked puzzled. He said, angry? What for?
He said, it’s our own fault. Now these are outrageous words for us. It sounds so heavy. But all he meant in the most unassuming simple way was it’s karma. You know?
Simply meaning, why be angry when this is the stuff of your this is your own punches coming back? This is what’s hard for us to bear. You know? I mean, this is a funny example, but I’m telling it. Okay?
It’s a very funny example. I’m embarrassed to tell it, but I tell it. It’s a good one. I was a feminist, and I was a really heavy duty feminist, believe me Mhmm. And I didn’t like men at all for several years.
And the only contact I had and I am not joking now. The only contact I had with Only contact I had with with men, this was for several years, was to was to hit them if they insulted me or looked at me the wrong way, you know, or I presumed they looked at me the wrong way. Whatever. Right? I was quite aggressive.
And this bloke in London, I remember one time, he said something to me, nobody got my breasts. I don’t remember. Has to be that, probably. Some part of my body that he dared discuss in the street. Right?
So he he said something, and he’s eating his fish and chips. He’s really tall bloke. And he so I came, and I got and I punched him in the nose like I remember his fish and chips flew everywhere. But then what happened normally when I hit a bloke in the street? Then I’d insult him and abuse him out loud and completely embarrass the poor man.
He wouldn’t do anything. He used to be paralyzed. Right? And then I’d walk away. Well, this time, this bloke decided to hit me back.
So I’m kind of running down the street. I remember it was at all in this Greek part of London, all these cafes, all these blokes outside, you know, looking at this with amusement of this man running this morning, and then he beat me. Right? They thought I was interesting. Probably I was his wife or something.
They was watching out out of interest. But what was so interesting this is my point here, and it’s just an example. He hit me straight back. Right? And the feeling I had was it was completely justified.
I had not the fraction of anger anymore. I, like, laughed. You know? It was sort of like, we finished. I hit him.
He hit me. Finish. So this is not karma in the literal sense because usually you don’t get the karma until the next life, but it it it it was like instant karma. And to me, it was a really good lesson because I didn’t because I hit him. I was the aggressor, and he he he actually gave me back my punch.
I thought, well, very good, you know, I’ve what I deserve. So the whole thing was kinda finished. Know? Well, that if we can just think that about everything that comes, the trouble is it’s three and a half lives between punches. You know?
That’s the problem. Do you get my point? It was clear to me I deserved it. I got it. I didn’t feel bad.
I didn’t feel like a victim. I didn’t blame him. I thought, oh, there’s justice. Well, that’s the attitude of karma. So, obviously, this is a really crucial point, my my my Tibetan friend.
To have that kind of attitude, and I’m talking about the punch one now, I’m talking about in general karma, you have to have a very lot of self esteem. You have to feel very unlike a victim. You have to feel very, you know, very strong in your life, very accepting, very together together person. And that’s the type of person this young monk was. He looked like an ordinary, easygoing, nice bloke.
But all this violence, all this suffering, and he had no anger. Because this is the point. Anger I’m sure it’s tea again. Tea’s in a minute. Anger, you know, and we’re gonna discuss this really much more, is the response so I’m not trying to be mean now.
Please try and hear it. Let’s try and hear it spaciously. Anger is the response of a victim. This is the big picture in Buddhism, that we’re all victims. We’re all feeling this poor me didn’t ask to get born.
I didn’t ask to get born. I just got plumped here. It’s their fault. Everybody always does it to us. I’m not being rude because people indeed do do terrible things to us, but I’m talking about even the normal view we have.
It’s like, I have nothing to do with who I am. It’s insane, you know. So whatever comes to us, including the good things you check this. Even when the good things come, it’s like, wow, I don’t deserve this. How amazing.
So we grasp at it, you know. And then when the bad things come, we definitely don’t deserve them. So either way, we can see this view of ego is this very is low self esteem, is I’m hopeless. And and, really, the big big one is that I have somehow nothing to do with what happens to me. It’s all like a big surprise.
And this is the worst suffering of all, Buddha says. That when we’re really integrated and really developed as a human being, as a being, and with these types of views, integrating, then everything that happens to us, as one lama says, it’s your own karmic appearance. It’s yours. You’re like this. You’re part of an interdependent scenario all the time.
So when really good things happen, you take it and rejoice because there’s your own good stuff coming back and you get strength from that. When your own bad stuff happens, it comes back to you. You take it and you also rejoice because you’ve just finished it and you make determination never to do that one again because you don’t want more of that. Thank you very much. That’s the attitude, you know.
So having this attitude, slowly, slowly integrating it, makes you very, very strong inside yourself, makes you have much kindness and patience towards yourself, and great kindness and patience towards others. You know? Okay. You wouldn’t just sit there and kind of accept the punch. Please punch me again.
It’s all karma. You’d get the hell out of the way. Of course, would, if you could. But if you can’t, then, you know, what would you do? As I say, there’s a saying in Buddhism that if you can change something, please change it.
If you cannot change it, then why worry? I mean, it sounds almost outrageous, but it’s so logical. Because much of the time, we’re bashing our heads against bricks walls, screaming and complaining, and how dare and why do they and what right have they got? I mean, you check how our normal way of talking. You check people on the bus.
You check people at work. We’re just at in this orgy of criticism. Never they this and they that and he this and how dare this and they that and the buses this and the people this and the weather that and the politicians this. It’s always complaining about something out there. You know?
It’s just normal talk. I mean, it’s kind of outrageous if you think about it. Is this poor victim here that everybody is doing things to? And then, of course, when we see injustice out there, it’s then we really get in. How dare they do that to them?
As if it’s somehow compassion. You know? Not being mean. We do have compassion, but it’s usually this constant pointing fingers, constant sort of schizophrenic sense of reality that I’m this kind of innocent little thing floating through this horrible mean life where dreadful things happen unfairly. You know?
I mean, of course, we’re all insane. No wonder we’re all insane, you know, and depressed and stressed with this type of view. Anyway, it’s a very interesting day, you people. I always find it’s very different. Each group is very, very different.
You know? And I’m sometimes surprised at what I say in groups. I’m saying, where is this all going, you know? And I realize it’s all interdependent. Okay?
So it’s all your fault what I’m saying. Okay? So who else wants to say something? So this person’s listening. Plenty of people.
My goodness. Hang on a tick. Just a sec. You down there. So what I’m saying is there’s no such thing as it’s not fair.
In the there’s no such thing as not fair. Listen. In the in the big, big, big picture, of course, there’s no such thing as not fair. On the relative level, of course, there’s injustice. What do you think Dalai Lama is doing what he was doing for forty five years?
He’s not because he’s saying it’s not fair. Doesn’t sit back and say, oh, well, it’s not fair. Just twiddling my thumbs. He never stops trying to get justice. No contradiction.
That’s why my monk friend went and demonstrated. No contradiction. But you do it out of compassion. You do it out of clarity and intelligence, knowing that this perhaps could help, you know, but with no fantasy expectations, no rage. This is very hard for us because we don’t think like that.
Political action has to be full of, know I mean, I know it’s when I was politically active, it was always hating that group and loving that group. You know? It was never sort of really having compassion for all of them and then being skillful in what you do, you know, for everybody’s sake. It’s a very different view. You know?
Yeah. Someone. You. Yeah. Oh, do you know that the concept of atonement in the?
Yes. Mhmm. You You can confess. Indeed. Yes.
You make atonement. Yes. Absolutely. But what what does the woman say about sins against Yes. Yourself?
Know it. I understand. What do we say about sins against yourself? Yeah. Like what?
For example, I’m gonna be personal. What do you mean? Give an example. You know that he’s, you know, a little younger person with the guns, then he can try and kill himself. Oh, I see.
I understand. Yeah. I Sure. Sure. Let’s say someone tries to kill themselves when they were younger, they look back on it and they see it was a dumb thing to do.
Well, it’s interesting, you know. The point about karma is that whether you harm yourself or someone else, that is, if you like quoting your words, a sin against yourself. That’s the point. So, of course, I’m gonna discuss, really after the break, the purification process. But everything we do, whether I’m the object or you’re the object, if it’s coming from anger or harm, then I get the negative karma of that.
So whether I’m harming you or me, I get the negative karma. So everything is a sin against yourself. And when we start to realize that, we start to have a real softness towards ourself and a real wish not to be negative any longer, not out of guilt or shame, but because we realize it’s insane to harm ourselves. And everything we do that is negative does harm ourselves. That’s the point.
So, of course, there’s a we can purify everything. There’s nothing that can’t there’s no karma that can’t be changed. Changed. Nothing is permanent. And you’re going to Yeah.
Absolutely. Definitely. If I didn’t talk about it, it would be terrible. Yeah. Right.
Yes. Somebody else. Yep. Yeah. Most people are worried about having a lot of anxiety or or they they consume and, like, so anxious that they’ll create some illness for themselves.
Think Oh, really? Emotions like anxiety People get so anxious saying that they get scared they’re gonna do something to harm. What do you say? Well, it’s a bit of a new age. Oh, is it?
That if you think certain things, it’ll happen, you mean? But, you know, the the people say, oh, I must have worried so much. I got cancer. Oh, see. I see.
I’m I’m not So for example, if you have a lot of stress and worry, you might give yourself cancer. I understand. Yes. So then? So I’m just wondering does anxiety Yes.
Those Bring on things. I understand. That Yep. Seeing as does that influence does that influence I understand. So having negative emotions Or or even being, concerned for someone.
Yes. I understand. So the negative basically, the the question is, do negative emotions bring on negative karma? Like compassion? Yes.
Okay. So the crucial point here is the crucial point is this. There are two causes of of suffering, our own suffering. Two causes. One is the past action that I did.
Let’s say it’s, to get cancer. Let’s say the the suffering is called getting cancer. Let’s say that. There are two causes. This is the general way of seeing it.
There are other ways too, and I’ll say them. There are two causes of my suffering. One is the action that I did in the past that caused me to be susceptible to that cancer. Then you can say but then the second cause is whatever you do in this life that is like the catalyst for it. The seed has to be there.
So or use another even a simpler forget even about no. Cancer is a good question. A good example. Okay. So that’s okay.
That cancer is a negative is is simply in the sense that it’s it’s a dissolution of your body more quickly than you’d rather have. Therefore, it’s the result of having killed in the past. So then by being neurotic in this life, let’s say being anxious and rude and worried and I mean, in a neurotic way, in a self centered kind of a not being mean about us again, please, you know. Just tight mind and fearful and and and even being negative and critical, whatever, of course, can help ripe. They’re catalysts that encourage the negative seeds to ripen.
That’s the point. But, also, most interestingly, getting cancer, getting sick, having bad things happen can be a very good sign of purification. As they all say in they say it in the in the teachings, as one lama said it, it’s like the dirt has to come out. So if you’ve been eating junk food all your life, and then you decide to eat good food, immediately you don’t get well and you start coming out with, you know, smelly farts and pimples and all sorts of things. Right?
You see my point? The dirt all comes out, doesn’t it? So then you know you and you know it’s not a bad sign. You’re glad because you know now the dirt’s coming out. So that’s a good sign.
Right? Well, that’s exactly also how to see our practice. They all say when you really start to practice virtue and to clean yourself up, you encourage the junk to come. So it can be a good sign. It can be a much worse suffering from the future ripening more quickly as mere old cancer.
So this is a very different approach, you know, and this is would be another reason why in this tradition, you’d rejoice. I mean, it’s sort of like, it’s bad enough having cancer. Why be miserable as well? You know? So it’s an attitude of learning to get to see it as that, especially if you’re practicing.
You encourage the dirt to come out. Well, I mean, friend of mine and this could even be in terms of your own emotions. A friend of mine is a monk, an Australian guy who lives in America in long retreat years and years. And he at some point, years and years ago he’s been meditating for, like, fifteen years now. And at some point, he said he had so much outrageous anger and pride.
He’s almost out of his mind. Right? And he went to Lama Zopa really depressed about it. And Rinpoche kept saying, it’s great. The dirt has to come out.
It’s great. The dirt has to come out. Because Roger was really working on his mind. So it it brought up all the garbage far more strongly. I can say this in my own self when I began to become a Buddhist.
I was running out of my brain with all my garbage. You know? I thought I was going mad. But, actually, I know because I was really attempting to practice being in situations that I normally couldn’t have stood. I was actually working on myself, and so I’d encourage all the junk to come out more quickly.
You know? It’s like you’re in a washing machine. We don’t ever get depressed when we see the dirt in the washing machine. We’re glad because now it’s out of the clothes. That is an attitude that’s a very powerful one.
So but generally speaking, you know, as this same lama said, look, if depression and anger come, they’re just delusions. You know? But if they come in the context of practice, they’re purification. So, yes, to answer your question, having unhappy neurotic fearful mind, negative, depressed, anxious, angry, you name it, whatever, to oneself or others, of course, it can exact can it can activate negative karma. Of course it does.
It’s like the fuel that you that encourages a negative karma to ripen. Yeah. So but you don’t directly cause it in the same way. The the seed has to be there. You can’t make yourself get cancer if you haven’t got the karmic imprint to get cancer.
So in that sense, you don’t cause it. There’s no need to be superstitious about it. You know? Does that answer your question? Alright.
Do you want a tea break for people? Yeah. You’re allowed to talk. Alright? Gloria has agreed that we can have because I think it’s really good to have discussion.
So in the morning, we’ll have some silence, and then in the afternoon, we can have talks. So now you can all discuss all this as much as you like. Okay? See you after tea. Pardon?
Yeah. Sure. To dinner through tonight. Then after dinner, we can have silence. Not really.
After dinner, we can have silence. So I think it’s these kinds of retreats is good to kind of, you know, get sort of talk it through. Then after dinner, there will be silence until the morning, and then we can have discussion again. Okay? Please go and talk and enjoy.
And then talk about but listen. If you’re gonna talk, it’s an important point. Try and keep it on it’s it help it makes the retreat really worthwhile if you keep it on the topic. Try make it a point not to gossip about the weather or how you feel in terms of, you know, or you you know what I’m saying. Keep it on the topic, then it makes it really worthwhile.
All good grist for the mill. Okay. Thank you very much.