Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 45-minute discussion, Ven Margaret McAndrew prepares practitioners to take a Tantric initiation. She establishes foundational concepts: what sentient beings are, the three scopes of the graduated path, and why refuge and moral discipline must precede initiation. She explains the three principles of the path—renunciation, bodhicitta, and emptiness—that make Tantra powerful and swift. A central theme is the Guru-disciple relationship: practitioners must learn to see their teacher as a Buddha manifestation, even when the teacher appears ordinary or flawed. McAndrew addresses the risks of Tantric practice and how to discern qualified teachers, using lived examples to make teachings concrete. She welcomes questions throughout and speaks directly to serious practitioners considering initiation.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 65 CE 1998 11 13.mp3
UUID: e637ee40-4ed3-4a4a-97ff-bb06c728ce37
Teacher: Ven Margaret McAndrew
Collection: Evening with V M McAndrew (Ven Margaret McAndrew)
Date: 1998-11-13
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 45.6 minutes
Words: ~5,567
Is the sound very loud? I don’t really think we need it too loud because it won’t affect the taping, will it? It’s just I want it to be more of a discussion and if I’m coming over loud it kind of destroys the effect. Okay. You can ask questions all the way through.
If you have any questions that you’d like to start off with, you’re you’re welcome to. Well, do any of the other experts want to say what things are? That’s a good point, actually, because it’s a very fundamental point that if we’re not clear about, we then we’re not clear about why we’re doing what we’re doing. There are some living beings who are not sentient beings. Yes.
Oh, yes. Yes. It’s hard to say where it starts. Certainly, worms are sentient beings. Generally, I just wanted to see if anybody was going to come up the answers but I better explain it so that we are clear.
There are two kinds of living beings. There are sentient beings and Buddhas. Sentient beings means having mind. So from that point a few Buddhas also have mind but they are not considered in this category because they have transcended the limitations of sentient beings. They are in a different class.
All other beings, even arhats, even great bodhisattvas are still sentient beings until they actually attain Buddhahood. So it it includes some beings who are not saṃsāra beings. But generally, when we’re talking about sentient beings, the ones we’re really concerned with helping are the ones who are still suffering in Samsāra. Of course, if we become great bodhisattvas or become enlightened, we’ll also be helping some of the other beings too. We’ll be helping the bodhisattvas along the path, but the main purpose is to help these suffering beings.
So generally, when we talk about sentient beings, we’re mainly thinking about the suffering beings. But it it isn’t just confined to those, the actual definition. So that’s an important point. Well, we can’t certainly it includes animals that don’t have backbones. You can’t say what size of animals is the smallest to be sentient beings.
It does seem to be a possibility that there are some small creatures such as viruses, possibly bacteria that are not sentient beings. This does seem to be a distinct possibility. Certainly there are plants which are what we consider be living beings from the Buddhist viewpoint they are not sentient beings because they don’t have consciousness. It’s difficult to say at what stage you find forms of life that have consciousness on the animal side. And it’s quite likely that some of the more lowly forms of life don’t have consciousness, but we can’t really be sure of that because it doesn’t seem to be explicitly stated anywhere in the scriptures.
So we take it for granted that worms and visible forms of life, and I think practically anything that you can see seems to be regarded as being something that does have consciousness. And the fact that they’re very stupid doesn’t mean that they don’t have Buddha potential. They have the potential to become to be born as human beings in some future lifetime to have human type intelligence, and they have Buddha potential. So we’re still concerned with working with them, but we can’t do much for them except say a few prayers for them while they’re in that state. So looking here at the idea of taking initiation, I’m assuming that everybody who’s considering taking initiation has already been through the refuge ceremony.
Is that so? I think there would be a problem there. I mean, you’re welcome to sit in on the on the talk and find out what it’s all about because it’s been used used for some future time. But I think, yeah, we have to take our commitments in stages, and it would be a basic step to have taken refuge. And Rinpoche gives refuge at from time to time fairly frequently, it’s requested.
And I should think that early next year, it would probably be likely to be happening again that Rinpoche will be requested to give the refuge ceremony. And, generally, when he’s requested to do that, is also requested to give the five lay precepts. So that’s a good opportunity for people who are interested in undertaking the lay precepts, either all of them or some of them, to take the lay precepts at that time and taking this sort of a commitment is really the start of your practice. And this is undertaken at the Prātimokṣa level. That means that these things are involved with individual liberation.
But it’s not necessary to have the Mahāyāna motivation to undertake these things, although it’s possible that in your mind you might be doing it with Mahāyāna motivation. It’s not necessarily enjoined on you in the ceremony at all. And these things, the taking refuge, observing moral conduct, these are really basic practice that we need to train ourselves in. And we need to train ourselves in the three principles of the path which are explained in the graduated path. The way to do that is mainly by coming along to teachings on the graduated path and is giving teachings on the graduated path.
But present, there are other teachings given on graduated path topics and basically all of our introductory meditation stuff and so on is involved with getting a grasp of the graduated path basics and the basic meditation practices. These come from what we call the Sūtra side of Buddhism which is general Buddhism. It’s not esoteric. There’s nothing hidden about it. It’s all available for anybody to learn about.
It’s not a heavy commitment. You can feel your way into it and just commit yourself as much as want to at any given time and then your commit just grow deeper as you go along. You can start off with just a light sort of interest and sort of hopeful attitude, really. Then perhaps as you become a little bit more involved, you decide that it’s time to take refuge. At that stage, want to take a certain level of commitment, which is just a basic level of commitment of avoiding, killing, and observing respect to the Three Jewels of refuge.
And then training yourself in the graduated path, you learn about the three scopes. You’re all familiar with the three scopes. So you’ve all had some graduated path training and you know about the three scopes. Yes. Right.
Well, basically, the three scopes that are expanding the graduated path, the small scope is the person who’s concerned about their future rebirth. They don’t want to be born in the lower suffering realms, and they look to the Three Jewels of refuge to guide them how to avoid that. The medium scope is to do with liberation, with attaining freedom from cyclic existence for oneself, understanding that while we go from life to life getting born again and again under the force of deluded mental states and karma, We’re never going to be free from suffering and even when we’re experiencing happy rebirth states, we’re never going to be really safe because we can always fall back again to the worst states. And so we really need to make an effort to set aside attachment to worldly aims and to put our energy into working to attain the liberation, the state of everlasting happiness which is attained by renouncing attachment to worldly things. So this doesn’t mean that you have to give up doing all your ordinary everyday activities, but it means that we have to change our attitudes.
It means that we have to place our priority on understanding the necessity of working towards cutting off the root of Samsāra, getting rid of our attachment and and our other disturbing emotions, anger and hatred and all the rest of it, and cultivating the wisdom that sees the essential nature of things. And also then we have the great scope which is concerned with the same understandings, but it’s concerned with all living beings, not just ourselves, and we have to develop great love and compassion and the thought of working for others. If we want to work for others, the only then we have to check out how it can be done effectively. And by checking we come to understand that it’s only through becoming enlightened by becoming Buddhas that we will really have the means. There’s some explanations of this in the teachings.
Basically, it is that if we follow the path of individual liberation, you reach liberation and become an Arahant. The Arahant enters nirvana on dying and so is only able to help a limited number of other beings because as soon as he or she passes away, they enter this state of nirvana. They don’t get reborn again. It’s said, people always bring up this point, of course, that the arhats do eventually get woken up by the Buddhas, but that’s eons and eons down the track. So to all practical purposes, you can say that the arhats’ help is limited, that they’re not helping others.
Once they enter nirvana, they can’t communicate. Buddhas have reached a state which is much more advanced than that of the arhat. It’s an extremely transcendental state. And so the Buddhas have this power to actually to be able to be their mind can be in nirvana and communicating with sentient beings at the same time. They can be actually deep in meditation on emptiness and at the same time going around acting on the conventional level, walking around talking and teaching and engaging in various activities.
And of course they have many, many special powers such as being able to emanate many different forms in many different places at the same time to help sentient beings in different ways. So we need to get these powers to be able to effectively help others. What it means is that according to our karma, whenever our karma happens to be receptive to being helped in in a particular way, the Buddhas will know that. Will be some Buddha somewhere who will know exactly all the Buddhas really will know what s going on because they have this omniscient mind and there will be some Buddha somewhere who has the karmic connection with us to at that time manifest in some form. So if we’re receptive to receiving the teachings, then the Buddhas will manifest as teachers to show us the path.
For beings who are not receptive to hearing the teachings, the most they can do is to help them to create good karma and so they will manifest in forms such as beggars to enable the sentient beings to take up an opportunity to to create some sort of good karma such as generosity. And the Buddhas are always working in that way. They’re always watching out for every single sentient being and helping them with this skillful means. And that’s what’s symbolized by the Thousand Arms of Chenrezig. So that’s the background and we need to train ourselves in these three principles of the path which are basically renunciation, bodhicitta and understanding of emptiness.
Now we don’t have to have a deep understanding of these things in order to take some of these initiations such as the Chenrezig initiation. But we do need to have a general idea of what they’re about, of what we’re trying to attain. Otherwise, would be meaningless. Because the reason why we’re taking this initiation is to enable us to gain higher realizations and that has to be based on a sūtra understanding. So Tantra and Sūtra not two things that we want to do keep separate.
In this tradition, tradition, Tantra is practiced, but it can’t be practiced without firm basis of Sūtra. It’s the Sūtra understanding that gives us the solidity to our Tantra practice so that we can carry it out fruitfully. And so we need to have that firm grounding on the basic basic things like observing karma, observing moral discipline, developing love and compassion, developing renunciation of Samsāra and then we can engage in Tantric practice. That’s why I said we need to have an understanding, at least some knowledge of the three principles of the path which is renunciation, bodhicitta and absolute truth. Renunciation, bodhicitta and absolute truth.
So don’t worry if you don’t know very much about these things because you can study them afterwards, but you just have to have that general idea. And that’s why when the lamas give these great initiations that they teach the graduated path beforehand. When His Holiness gives the Kālacakra initiation, he teaches graduated path for three days beforehand then he gives the initiation. And so this is because a lot of the people in Tibet perhaps might not have had these teachings. So for us, we have the opportunity of coming along here to receive the teachings, we can also study the books and so on.
So it’s explained in things like this prayer of the the graduated path, the one that we often recite. Do you know what page it’s on? I think it’s page twenty one. Yes. No, that’s not it.
Twenty. Yeah. No. Oh, sorry. I’ve got the wrong yes.
Yes. It is page twenty. So it it takes us through the three scopes. It starts off with devotion to the master, reflecting on the precious human birth, on impermanence and death and the necessity of following pure action observing karma, understanding that the after death it says that our will follow us like a shadow our white and black actions follow us like a shadow follows the body. And so we then get up to this first.
Let me understand the thoughts of samsaric perfection. To taste it cannot satisfy it as the door of all suffering. It cannot be trusted. Let striving for the bliss of freedom grow strongly within me. So that’s the medium scope, the thought of attaining liberation.
And that is what is called renunciation. When we talk about renunciation, we’re talking about this renunciation of attachment to the good things of cyclic existence. In other words, just placing the mind on the attainment of liberation. And then it goes on to bodhicitta, which is one of the other three principles. Let me say that just as I have fallen into the sea of Samsāra, so have all mother migrators and they are trained in the supreme bodhicitta which bears the burden of freeing migrators.
So that’s the motivation that we have to have in order to enter Tantra. It’s not enough to have thought of individual liberation. Tantra has nothing to do with the practice for individual liberation. It’s only for Mahāyāna practice. That doesn’t mean that all Mahāyāna practitioners practice Tantra, but Tantra is the quick way to attain enlightenment.
Without Tantra it takes countless great eons to attain enlightenment, many many many lives. With Tantra it’s possible to attain enlightenment even in this lifetime. Perhaps most of us won’t attain it in this lifetime but we can hope that we can attain it in a very few lifetimes. And so it’s a very fast practice. There are some features of Tantric practice which make it bring the result very, very quickly.
So then it goes on to saying, When trained in the common path, I’m a suitable vessel, let me enter with ease that mobile entrance for fortunate beings, the Adamantine vehicle, the highest of all vehicles. That’s referring to the tantric path. It also mentions sorry, in the previous verse, sorry, I missed something there. So going back to the previous verse, mentions the path uniting Calm Abiding and Insight. And that is the third principle of the Path, the understanding of emptiness.
And then having gained those three principles of the Path, entering the Adamantine vehicle which is referring to Tantra. So there’s a lot of things that can be said about the Tantra path. It’s a quick path. It also presents certain dangers to the person, because in the Tantric Path we actually place more emphasis on the mind rather than on following strict rules all the time, but it’s it’s necessary to have this of the rules. We have to have a firm understanding of the basic teachings.
We need to have this really strong training in moral conduct. We need to really have love and appreciation of the vows of moral conduct. And it’s said that having the vows of moral conduct is a necessary basis for your Tantric practice. And so it’s not to think that by entering into Tantric practice you can do away with the moral conduct. But there are certain instances when you’re practicing Tantra that you would have to let your tantric requirements override some of the the less the less, how would you say, the lesser vows of moral conduct perhaps.
So so for example, a very good example of this was the night when we had taken the eight Mahāyāna Precepts which isn’t exactly a Prātimokṣa practice but it’s similar. For the monks and nuns we actually have a vow not to take alcohol. And when we do our Guru Puja on the certain dates that we have a commitment to do this practice for or even when we do it at other times, then we’re required to taste the wine. There’s two substances that get handed around. And also the other day we’d taken vows not to eat after lunchtime, we had to at least just taste the blessed substances even though we just touched it with our finger and put our finger in our mouth.
We did have to do that and so and we had to taste the wine and this is because it is a commitment for certain people who have taken certain Tantric initiations. It won’t be that won’t be involved with the Chenrezig initiation, but this is just an example. But there are certain things, certain instances where your Tantric practices or commitments will override certain pratimoksha things. You have to have the greatest respect for your Prātimokṣa things and not think that this means that if you are practicing Tantra, the Prātimokṣa disciplines are unimportant. In fact, are very important and they are the basis for success in Tantric practice.
Is what a teacher taught the Tibetans when he came to Tibet. He saw that Tibetans were very confused on this issue and he taught in this way to help them to clear up their confusion. So we have to have Mahāyāna motivation. We have to have a very earnest desire to attain enlightenment quickly so as to benefit sentient beings. So we have to have this attitude of putting the liberation of sentient beings before ourselves so that we’re prepared to run this risk that’s involved in undertaking Tantric initiation.
The fact that if we do go off the path then we run into danger whereas with the Sūtra Path it s very safe. If you follow the Sūtra Path you really can’t go wrong. It s just straightforward. You just keep on going the way it says. In Tantra you have use your judgment, you have to make decisions, it’s often not so clear and it’s possible that if people get caught up in ego, if they disobey their Lamas, if they don’t respect their Lamas correctly, then they can go off the path and fall into quite mistaken actions and create a lot of bad karma.
So it’s said that you’re actually undertaking a risk and you have to be prepared to take that risk. At the same time, we don’t want to discourage you because it is a very powerful way to practice. It’s said that it’s better to go into Tantric practice because as long as you don’t break your respect for your Guru, for your Lama, but if you break your other Tantric vows and on and go to the hell states, you’ll come out very, very quickly and have a rebirth as a tantric practitioner and get enlightened very quickly and it’s much faster even so than going along the sūtra path. I guess you know what, I was at one very depressed because I’d unintentionally broken some of my Tantric commitments and I was very depressed about this because I’d only just taken them and I expected myself to be perfect. Geshe Dhawa Gyaltsen was giving us a teaching on this and he said, another thing is that when you’re in the hells, you can push the other hell beings around and say, I’m better than you are.
Because we’ve been to the hells countless times before anyway for bad purposes, so now at least we’re going there for a good purpose. But not to worry about that because really if you have trust in the teacher and if you do your best earnestly to follow the commitments, then even though it’s impossible to really avoid making some mistakes, we can purify them and restore our samayas, our word of honor, and keep on going ahead. So this is not something to be worried about. There are techniques built into the practice for dealing with this situation. Yes.
So that anyway, this brings up sorry. Yes. In the Guru Puja, it means that nothing has true existence. This is not saying they don’t exist. This is what we’re talking about when we talk about the absolute truth, the truth of emptiness.
It’s a very subtle point. We need to understand it in order to gain liberation, in order to gain enlightenment. It’s one of those three principles of the path I was just referring to. nirvana is basically it, but what we wanna do is that we can be both in nirvana and not stuck in it, whereas the arhats are stuck in it. Buddhas, their minds are in nirvana, they are basically in nirvana.
nirvana really in a sense, it’s not a place of course, it’s a state of mind. The arhat, it’s said that the arhat enters nirvana when they die, but essentially they attain liberation at the time when they cut off the root of Samsāra and attained true cessation of all the distorted mental states and freed themselves from bondage to the distorted mental states and karma. When they removed all the karmic imprints and the distorted mental states, then they’re liberated. And then it’s said that they enter nirvana when they die, but think in a sense that’s just using language. But in another sense also the Arhat, any being except the Buddha has to go through this sort of in and out process of meditation on emptiness.
Even an Arhat, before they die, while they’re still alive in their body, still have some subtle dual view when they are out of their meditative equipoise. They know that it s just an illusion. They’re taking in by it but it still appears to them. So they do have this it’s only when they’re in deep meditative equipoise, on emptiness, nothing of the conventional level appears to them that they’re actually in this state of being free from duality, but it manifests again when they come out of that meditation. For a Buddha, there is no such thing as any dualistic view.
They observe conventional reality and they observe ultimate reality, but there is no appearance of true existence in any of this. The appearance of true existence is something which is false. So we have to understand this is technical terminology and it’s quite confusing until you understand what it means. When we’re talking about there is not an atom of true existence, we’re talking about something which appears as existing from its own side, self established, independent, not depending on anything else. And this is what’s meant by true existence.
So things do exist. We have this instinctive feeling that they exist independently, which is what causes all our problems, but when we have this deeper insight, we’ll understand that everything exists dependent on other phenomena and there is nothing that exists independently and that everything exists everything that does exist conventionally and ultimately exists without any trace of true existence, understanding what true existence means in this particular sense. So it it’s not refuting existence. It’s asserting conventional existence. So anyway, that’s a difficult topic, that’s just a bit of an idea of what it’s all about.
So I was going to go on and say something about the relationship to the teacher. When we take initiation, we have to be committing ourselves to the Mahāyāna path. From this stage onwards, there’s no going backwards. We’re committed to the Mahāyāna path and we’re committed to doing this kind of following this sort of tantric approach to enlightenment and we’re committed to a particular relationship with the initiating Master who we receive the initiation from. So in Tantra, in Sūtra teachings we have to have great respect for the teacher but we’re not required to see the teacher as anything else but a human being, a human being with qualities that we find very admirable.
But we don’t have to see our teacher as being a Buddha. But in Tantra we need to practice seeing our teacher as being a Buddha. Of course this isn’t something that’s necessarily easy for us. Sometimes we can see that a teacher like Khensur Rinpoche, sometimes you get a flash that he’s just like a Buddha, but at other times you’ll see him as having perhaps various, what appear to be false, perhaps fragilities and so on. You’ll see that he can’t speak English and so on.
You can say, well, if he has omniscient mind, how is it that he can’t speak English? Except to say, no. Good. Something like that, you know. Thank you.
Well, maybe they can. I don’t know about extraterrestrials. The point is that we’re we’re not worried about extraterrestrials, but we’re worried about we’re concerned about Khensur Rinpoche who’s going to give us this initiation, and we have to see Khensur Rinpoche as being an emanation of Buddha. Basically, the reason why we can’t see Khensur Rinpoche and other teachers in the aspect of a Nirmānakāya Buddha such as Śākyamūni Buddha with all the marks and signs such as the uṣṇīṣa on top of the head and the little curl between the eyebrows and webs of light between the fingers and the rays of light emanating from the body and all this kind of thing, you know, marks on the hands, all the rest of it. It’s because our karma is not ripe for us to see.
We don’t have the karma for that. When we have a greater accumulation of merit, we’ll be able to look at our Gurus and actually see them in that aspect. It’s in actual fact, there were some people who couldn’t see Buddha as being anything special when he was on the earth. So there were a lot of people who thought he was just a nuisance. In the same way, we see Khensur Rinpoche and we see he’s a lovely, elderly Tibetan gentleman but we don’t see him as being can’t really see him as being a Buddha.
But we have to start practicing this way and there are some practices we do and in fact when we do these kinds of practices with deities such as Chenrezig, we actually visualize that Chenrezig is not just Chenrezig, the embodiment of the compassion of all the Buddhas, but is also a manifestation of our Guru, or if we have more than one Guru, then Chenrezig is the manifestation of all our gurus rolled into one. So in tantra, we start thinking about some things that don’t quite fit our ordinary way of thinking. We might think that if we have two or three Gurus that these are separate people and they can’t all be rolled into one. But essentially, if emanations of Buddha, they are emanations of the one energy. Even though they are countless Buddhas, they are all working for sentient beings in the same way.
Their wishes, their aspirations are all the same. Their work is the same. We can think of the deity we’re meditating on as being emanation of all our teachers. We shouldn’t think that there’s a contradiction between our different teachers. This is a difficult thing if you have several teachers.
It’s one of the things that’s difficult about Tantric practice and it’s one of the reasons why it’s possible to make bad karma because your teachers might tell you different things. Might like one teacher, you know, one teacher might seem better tempered and sweeter and the other one might seem bad tempered and difficult and so on. It could be easy to start criticizing and saying, Well, look, I like this teacher but that teacher’s no good, he’s got a bad temper. Or things like this, know, he’s angry. If we say things like this, This is negative, this is criticizing the teacher.
We have to say things, of course, you know, if the teacher scolds you, you can say he’s showing the aspect of being wrathful. But Yes? Yes. From the Tantric viewpoint, he attained enlightenment before he was born in this world. He didn’t actually attain he didn’t actually find the teachings existing from the living teachers of his time.
He did go to living teachers before he showed the aspect of attaining enlightenment but according to the Mahāyāna teachings and Tantra teachings, he had actually attained enlightenment in Akanishtha Heaven, Akanishtha Pure Land, is a very special Pure Land where you find only Nirmānakāya, very high bodhisattvas, sorry, and the very high bodhisattvas attain full Buddhahood there and are able to then manifest in aspects in different worlds. Yes. So he would’ve Yes. So he actually received teachings from other Buddhas. I’m not sure.
So somebody might have actually heard this story. I’m not too sure. I’m vague about the details myself, but certainly it’s actually said that Maitreya Buddha was one of his teachers and that actually Śākyamūni Buddha attained enlightenment before Maitreya. But at one stage when they were both bodhisattvas, the Śākyamūni Buddha received teachings from Maitreya and then he actually did something I think it was when he gave his body to the to the cannibal spirits. He accumulated so much merit from that that he attained enlightenment quicker, something like that.
Do you know? Perhaps he did. Anyway, certainly, Maitreya showed the aspect of being Śākyamūni Buddha’s disciple when when Śākyamūni Buddha was teaching, Maitreya was one of the eight great bodhisattvas who was in his entourage. But anyway, I’m not too clear about these stories but the point is that the Buddhas did attain enlightenment through following the Guru and everybody had a guru or gurus. Then you would think that he was showing the aspect of being crazy so that you could have the opportunity to practice perhaps stopping him from doing that or something.
I mean, yes, sometimes there are times when you have to treat your guru. Yes. Yes. Well, seeming The point is to be very, very careful before you take the step. Be very, very careful.
It’s explaining you should actually read what it says in the graduated path in Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand. It has explanations on this topic. There are also other texts that have an explanation. There are qualities we should look for in a teacher. Actually, if somebody would like to jump up and go and get the book out of the library.
I think I’ve got the keys here or Becky. Here. Yes. It might be interesting to actually look that up. There are some points that we have to have.
In particular, we should look for a teacher who is a follower of the Vinaya, who has tamed his mind through the practice of moral discipline. That’s one of the important points. There have been some great teachers who showed the aspect of being crazy Yogis who didn’t pay so much attention to the aspect of moral discipline, but unless we’re capable of appreciating their qualities, it’s better for us. We should be more careful to have a teacher who does show this aspect of having pure moral discipline. That’s very important.
Also, look for compassion, concern for the students, having overcome ego. Thanks. Sorry. I’m in the wrong place. Yes.
He’s a spiritual guide. Actually, Rinpoche is going to be getting onto this topic shortly. But that will probably be after we’ve taken the initiation. Mhmm. What did he say actually?
Did he talk about this? He did, didn’t he? Yes. Talked about what we should be looking for in the spiritual guide. That he sought the spiritual guide.
There’s such so much in here that Yes. That’s right. I wish I’d actually, I should have brought that in with me. I have my notes on that. Yes.
Yes. That’s right. Because it’s very hard to check out a lot of these things that You know that Khensur Rinpoche has been the abbot of the monastic college so he certainly has the knowledge. The