Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 46-minute healing workshop, Venerable Kaye Miner uses everyday objects—a biscuit, a cup—to illustrate how we project qualities onto things, mistaking our own mental labels and emotions for inherent properties of the object. She then applies this insight to practical situations: romantic relationships where we exaggerate positive qualities; envy and material desire based on false projections; and taking on others’ pain in compassion practice. The talk moves into ethical action, exploring when to help in conflict situations and when to step back, emphasizing that motivation matters far more than outcome, and that personal example inspires change better than argument. She closes with a detailed discussion of self-cherishing versus healthy self-regard, and how dismantling self-grasping through tonglen practice liberates us from suffering. Pitched at practitioners already familiar with Buddhist meditation and terminology.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 01 Healing Workshop 1995 07 09.mp3
UUID: 945f3a5f-0e78-42b7-bd39-3f1ddfaed68d
Teacher: Ven Kaye Miner
Collection: Healing Workshop (Ven Kaye Miner)
Date: 1995-07-09
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 46.0 minutes
Words: ~4,538
Once gave this lecture at the Buddhist Summer School in Melbourne University. And I thought, you know, because this this is also not hard. It’s not easy to kind of communicate this stuff. So I thought, okay, well, I’ll take a biscuit and I’ll explain it with the Monte Carlo. And so I took along the Monte Carlo and I said, okay, now what have I got here?
And because everyone says, oh, you got a biscuit. Yeah, that’s right. Okay, so I broke it in half. I said, Well, what have I got now? And they said, Two biscuits.
And then I crumbled up one half. And I said, What have I got now? They said, Crumbs. But it was just like, if you break it down, you can see that the biscuit is not like just one part of it. It’s your convention, right, or our convention, labeling on all of those things together that qualifies.
Okay? That it’s a biscuit, that label of being a biscuit, label of being a cat. Now, what’s the point of all this? Is that what you’d like to know? What’s the point of all this?
Is that what it shows us is that so much in our lives, we are labeling. We are projecting. We are saying that this is good, this is bad. We’re saying that’s pretty, that’s ugly. We’re layering these labels onto something.
But what we think is that in actuality, those qualities are coming from the side of the object. Am I clear? Want an example, I bet. I’m a lovely person. Whenever people hear the name Kay, they think lovely person.
It’s like the loveliness comes out of Kay and just the mention of the word k just you don’t believe me, which is exactly my point. That’s exactly my point, is that one person may think that I’m lovely, but another person may not. So the loveliness is not coming from my side. The loveliness is the projection that one of those people is putting on and that the other one is not putting on. Is that clear?
So, okay, so how does that affect us in our daily life? Well, Now, was talking with someone this morning about material possessions, I think. Was it you? Yeah. And we were talking about how we can envy someone else for having something that we would like.
Now, the reason that the envy would arise is because we are projecting a quality onto that possession that the other person has. But what we’re actually thinking is that that possession has that quality from its own side. Okay? And that’s why we are developing envy for it. Because we want to have that thing because we think that thing, is going to bring us happiness or pleasure or something like that.
We kind of, you know, but we think that it’s coming from the side of the object. We think the object is, you know, if you have that object, then you’re going to have that happiness and that level of satisfaction because you look at that object and you think that that object itself is happiness. You think that object itself is pleasure. But in actuality, that’s not the case. In actuality, it’s your projecting those qualities onto it.
So what this is all about is trying to get you to see clearly and this is the wisdom stuff I keep talking about, you know. It’s the wisdom that can clearly see that, uh-oh, hang on a moment. Here goes my mind, thinking it’s coming from this side of the object, you know, making all that kind of projection again. Hang on a moment, let me see this thing very clearly. What is the reality of this situation?
Is that making sense? So it’s very much, if we are able to kind of give ourselves that space in our mind, which again we develop through doing meditation, then we are able to have that clarity and develop that wisdom to be able to see things for the way that they really are. That, in actuality, they are dependent arisings. They are dependent upon causes and conditions and their parts and their function and things like that. And that we then go and add this additional layer of projected qualities, which we think are coming from the side of the object.
It’s just like this is a cup. We’ll call it a cup. Now why do we call it a cup? It’s because it’s got a handle. It’s got an opening at one end, but it’s closed in at the rest.
It can contain things. And at this moment, it’s got some water. So we call it a cup. Now it’s I think the cat’s bored. So, I mean, you you can see we we are labeling, you know, the word cup onto it.
We are saying that it’s got a cupness about it. Right? And in another language, I mean, in French, it it would say. Anyone speak French? Une tasse?
Une, une tasse. A cup. And so it’s because of all of these things of the of of its of its shape, of its function, and of our labeling that it becomes a cup. Okay? Hello?
That’s right. I don’t know, haven’t seen the lip thing all day. Okay, so the whole point of all of that stuff is to Oh, did the cat go to the lady who’s allergic? Isn’t that funny? So the whole point of this is to actually help us to see how we misconstrue things or don’t see things clearly.
And when we are able to see these things clearly then, and see that they don’t kind of have these qualities from their own side, that it’s something that we project or that we conventionally kind of layer onto them, then we will find that there’s a lessening of being caught up and being worried about things and getting angry, getting upset. Because you can see that like just as it is with a cup or a cat or a biscuit, it’s the same with all phenomena. It’s the same with all phenomena that, again, we’re kind of seeing that there are qualities or characteristics that are existing from its own side, but we’re actually projecting it again. We’re layering it on top. Definitely people have characteristics and qualities.
We’ve been about developing positive qualities and things like that. But just as it is with me being a lovely person, it’s very much it’s not coming from my side, the lovely person. It’s very much a person’s interpretation and projecting of that. Although initially, the person that thinks that I’m lovely thinks it is coming from my side. Can you see that?
But it can’t be because not everybody thinks that I’m lovely. I can’t understand it myself. Is that clear what I’m saying there? That for the person that thinks that I’m a lovely person, they think that it’s coming from my side. They believe that it’s coming from my side, that yes, I am definitely a lovely person.
But if that was the case, then everybody that met me who sees me, hears me, touches me, you know, everybody would think that I’m a lovely person. But unfortunately, the reality is that they don’t. So if that’s the case, how possibly could the loveliness come from me? Well, I would be hoping that the compassion comes from me. But if that was the case, if it really did come from me, okay, then everybody would see it.
Everybody would know it if it really truly came from me. Now obviously, you know, have, well, maybe not obviously. I mean, let’s talk about somebody else. It might be easier. Let’s talk about the Dalai Lama, for example.
Okay. Now, obviously, we all feel that there’s compassion coming from him. Okay? We feel that. But it’s our mind labeling that compassion, our mind identifying that as compassion.
And there may be some Chinese people who don’t see it at all. So although from his side, there’s definitely some quality that he’s developing. It’s really very much us that kind of labels that as compassion and us that see it coming from his own side. Do you know what I mean? It sounds a bit confused now.
I think there is definitely something there. It’s our convention that’s sort of saying, yes, this is compassion. We’re getting tricky, aren’t we? Because That’s a nice Did everyone hear that? You didn’t hear?
Jo was saying that Jung calls it our shadow and that she wouldn’t recognize the loveliness in me unless she had the loveliness in her. So you recognize it, don’t you? The things that you see in people that you don’t like is because there’s something anew and you’re recognizing it outside. They are there. I mean, there’s definitely qualities there.
But what we do is build them up, project them more than is actually the reality. Yes, I guess so. Exaggerating reality? Well, I sorry. Hang on.
Hang on just a moment. Yes. I think I think it is like that. I think what was your name again? Harrison.
I think when certainly when we get into a relationship early on, we tend to really project qualities. Think those qualities are coming from the other person, you know. And then later as the romance sort of wears off, you actually see the reality. I think that’s actually a good example of how we mistakenly see qualities that aren’t necessarily there. This is an incredible subject, I tell you, really.
Asking when you’re whether it’s important coming and going naturally. Yeah. Or do you have the choice to to control the breath so that you’re kind of breathing out more forcefully and or whatever? It’s probably best that it’s just the natural coming and Okay. So that’s working, yeah.
I think initially when you’re starting off with that meditation, because it is quite hard to be like taking on the suffering of others, if you really start to feel it, it’s sort of like, you know, if the breath is kind of too long, it can become like And so because you have to breathe out again straight away, it kind of, it’s almost the relief, you know? So I think initially it’s really good to keep the breath just coming very naturally at its normal pace because it allows you to move on to the next step so that it’s not becoming too much of a burden for you. Think what happens after a while is that your breath becomes just so natural and in ways you even your awareness is there, but it’s not so kind of tight on that awareness. You even get to a point that you actually are not completely unaware of the breath, but not so concentrated on it. It’s like when you’re doing a breathing meditation, that’s all you’re concentrating on, right?
And it’s very much trying to kind of hold on to that point. But after a while with that breathing meditation, the breathing is very kind of natural coming and going and your mind’s not running after other thoughts. You’re very much sitting there in a very relaxed space. Do people find that? Is that what happens?
Okay. So I think similarly with the Tonglen is initially because it is a difficult thing to kind of cope with taking on the black and giving off the good is that it’s good to have that awareness of the breath until such time that you settle into the practice. Like with a breathing meditation, you feel relaxed and content and able to do the visualisation, the giving and the taking, in a very kind of stabilized way. Does that make sense? A matter of trying.
Running out of questions. Tonglen, giving and taking. Yes. Well, I think you’re not actually taking on their pain. The mind’s got to be very clear that it’s not I’m going to feel this pain for them.
It’s like taking away the pain, taking it away from them. And again, it’s what we’ve just been talking about, this kind of labeling and projecting of these things. If we have a mind that learns the reality of these things, then you can see that it doesn’t become actual physical pain that you’re going to be experiencing yourself. I remember reading an example I think did everyone hear what Stephen was saying then? I think if you’re a very advanced practitioner with highly developed levels of compassion, then yes, maybe.
But I think what tends to happen is that when we’re doing that type of meditation, is that the pain that we feel is more our fear, our kind of closing off again, our kind of resistance to it. So I think that story is in there. I think I’ve said it. What were you going to say, Michael? Yeah.
That could be it. Mhmm. Did everyone hear that? Do you know what I really think happens? I’ve experienced something myself.
I don’t work as a practitioner in the healing profession. I know when there’s been times where somebody is suffering intensely and I’ve been with them like they’re dying or they’re in incredible pain. I’ve been involved with trying really strongly from my heart, to help them. The only way I can is trying to send them light or making strong prayers for them or something like that. And at the end I can feel completely drained and have all kinds of aches and pains myself.
So I don’t know that it’s actually like the taking on. I think it’s like giving out so much. I think it’s like you’re really trying to help them. You really want to help. You’re having some kind of empathy with what they’re feeling.
And I think there’s sort of like a giving out in maybe not the most beneficial or wise way. And so that actually drains you and causes these things to happen. I don’t know that it’s actually taken on. Am I making sense with that? From my own experience, that’s what I was thinking.
I think it’s a balance between open heart and being realistic of just how much you are able to give at this stage. Because, like I was saying before, we feel that we’re limited. We’ve only got that limited little bag of compassion and yet we have this kind of thought of really wanting to help and to benefit and so we feel like we give, give, give. And I mean, it’s like sometimes I just feel like I forget myself. I really forget my body and just feel like I’m giving.
But as a result of that forgetfulness, it drains me. So there’s not that balance. Yeah. I don’t know. I mean, what do people think of that?
Other people think that that’s Because I think when you are touching with people, there’s that incredible connection that you must have. So there’s an opening that’s occurring. Sometimes the boundaries start to go down and I think that’s what Michael was saying, that soft core is starting to be touched, which in ways is fantastic. And it’s our aversion that makes it sometimes a problem. But if we are able then to work with that, be with that, sit with that kind of feeling of pain and allow it to really remove our kind of blockages and obscurations and our preconceived conceptions of what pain is and what pain isn’t and allow that kind of soft goodness to grow, then maybe that’s what it’s all about.
Yes. Very much. I mean, you have Or knowing how to handle it. And so it really gets back to Yes, think it all boils back to the main points that we’ve been talking about all weekend. It’s about this level of mindfulness, this development of compassion and this kind of wisdom and the combination of them all to be able to function most effectively in whatever situation you find yourself in.
No, I don’t think that. Okay. So it was about if you see a situation where there’s a lot of confusion going on, you’re thinking from a Buddhist perspective, then it’s better perhaps to sit on the sidelines and just did you get all that then? All right. Well, I think there’s a couple of things there.
One is that it really is difficult to judge other people. And you can’t be responsible for other people’s actions. You have to be responsible for your own actions. But Buddhism is not this sit back and take a back seat and just sort of watch what’s going on kind of caper. It is a very active philosophy.
I don’t like to use the word religion so much, but philosophy, a way of living our lives. Because if you see a conflict situation, for example, it’s not really right or ethical to sit there and just say, oh, it’s got nothing to do with me and just make sure that my mind’s okay and stuff the rest of it. It doesn’t really matter. I don’t think that’s what Buddhism is about. If you are able to be of benefit, then you try and help.
But if you’re not able to be of benefit, then it’s probably better not to get involved. So you need to assess whether you’re going to be of benefit. Benefit. Now, how do you assess that you’re going to be of benefit is by having a realistic awareness of where you’re at and having the wisdom to be able to see that situation clearly. Having the ability, the skill that is able to say the right thing or do the right action that’s going to make a beneficial outcome.
But underlying all of those things, the most important factor is your motivation. And what happens with many of us is that our motivation isn’t pure. It’s almost like, well, I better sort this out because otherwise it’s going to impact on me later. Our motivation is really more kind of self. So it really is important that you take the time to assess that.
Now often when things arise very quickly and sort of flare up quickly, we don’t necessarily have the time to go and sit down and meditate. Now where am I at and how do I feel? So this is what builds up over a period of time of becoming familiar with your mind and meditation and developing your understanding so that you become aware of really what your limits are or what level you are at so that you can act most appropriately and beneficially. I think I gave an example yesterday about someone being chased with an axe. Someone’s trying to murder somebody else and you tell them they’ve gone in the wrong direction.
You’re making a lie about it. Well, the motivation there is so that there’s not harm caused. And that action is acting out of compassion. And you may not be able to convince the axe murderer that really committing murders is the wrong thing because if they’ve got that kind of thought in their mind and you try to say, oh, that’s not a very nice thing to do, they could turn on you. They’re not going to be in a space to listen or to understand.
So telling them the other ways is sort of like the most skillful means in that situation. Is that clear? It is a bit of an extreme example, I’m sorry. So in everyday life. Well, think Buddhism pervades everyday life because it’s not something mean, this level of awareness and this level of motivation and of compassion has to apply to everything that you do in everyday life.
You can just try it with the people that you live with and you work with. Oh, no. You can’t do that. It’s the individual responsibility thing, you know. Let me make the point clearly.
There are a lot of compassionate, kind people outside that aren’t Buddhist. I don’t think Buddhists have got the monopoly on it. And I think actually there are a lot of people that call themselves Buddhists that have got a way to go. The point is, though, that there are definite situations where you aren’t able to affect change by trying to get people to change their way of thinking. You can’t necessarily do that.
It’s that old saying, you can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. You can kind of talk to someone until you’re blue in the face about it’s best not to kill or it’s best to be kind or something like that. But you can’t make them actually do it. Now what inspires us most to do something? What inspires us most to be a kind person?
And that’s from observing somebody else that has got it together like that. Just as you were saying, the one person in the situation who is trying to, is obviously trying to be kind and patient and not getting caught up with all the other kind of bitchyness and things like that, then that has some impact because people think, well, they seem pretty happy. They seem content. Why can’t I have that? And that’s actually how I first got into Buddhism because my life was falling into a heap around me.
And I had these friends who seemed to be quite happy and they weren’t getting as angry as I was. I kind of said, well, why is it? How come I want to be a bit like that? And so as a result, I started practising Buddhism. What I also remember as being manager, had thirty three staff under me, ranging from sixteen year old girls up to much older men.
There was obviously office politics, there was bitterness amongst the girls, there was competition, all kinds of things. Now, I couldn’t go there and dictate and say, now, you did this, you do that, because I mean, what are they going to say to me? Get stuffed, Kaye. I mean, you know, no one will take any notice. But what I used to try and do was whenever there was a conflict between two people, was I’d talk to them individually and try and kind of get them to see that there are other perspectives to the situation, like how is the other person feeling.
And I’d try and always be aware of my behaviour, know, ensure that my behaviour didn’t fall into those kind of patterns as well so that there was something that they could feel inspired about. It’s the same with being a nun. It’s like I’m just an ordinary human being. I’m wearing these clothes and I’ve taken some vows. But the only thing that’s going to have any real impact on anybody with me being a nun is how well I practice what I preach, how well I behave.
Does come down to individual responsibility for your own actions and just trying to keep a situation together yourself. Yeah. It’s two things. One is the wish to take away the suffering so they don’t suffer. And as we mentioned yesterday, compassionate is wishing beings not to have suffering.
So it’s that compassionate wish there, definitely take away the suffering. And the second thing is when it’s taking on board, taking on that suffering, it’s to destroy the self-cherishing. And when the self-cherishing is destroyed, then the creator of your suffering is destroyed. So if you’re taking on that suffering of the others that’s destroying your self-cherishing, you ain’t going to be hurt. Do you see what I mean?
Yeah. It may be having some benefit if it’s taking away from the other. Did everyone hear what Michael was saying? Michael was talking about, In a situation where somebody’s suffering and you take on that suffering and feel very proud about taking on that suffering. So that sort of pride is actually increasing self-cherishing.
It’s not so useful at all. But I think when you think that you’re taking on the suffering and the problems of others, the most important thing is to think that it’s destroying the self-cherishing and to have that realisation that the self-cherishing mind is the creator of all the causes for future unhappiness and suffering. So if that is destroyed, then you’re destroying the creator of future unhappiness. And if that is destroyed, then you’re not going to have it. Makes it much easier.
And it’s that self-cherishing as well that is what blocks us, that has this aversion to experiencing pain, that has this aversion to opening up and being exposed. And when that’s removed, you know, it’s the most liberating thing. You know, I just you’re free. Oh, self nurturing. No, no.
The self-cherishing is the Self grasping is a good term too. There’s up here a picture of this lama up here called Lama Zopa Rinpoche who’s the abbot of our monastery at Kopan in Nepal. And he teaches in English, but he can never say grasping. He says grasshopping. Self grasping.
He’s gorgeous. And then he laughs like this. But it’s this self grasping that’s Between self and being selfish. Sorry? The difference between, say, self and being selfish.
Yes, yes, I think that’s actually true. Joy was saying it’s a difference between the higher self and being selfish. This self grasping is really like me, me, me. I want, I must, me first, me, me, me. It’s this self grasping that really is what propels us to do all of our actions.
It’s like, I’m thirsty, I go and get a drink of water. That’s on a very elementary level. Of course, there’s got to be some sort of, what’s the word, Motivation, I guess, for the self to be happy, to have this will to live. So by necessity must be some kind of appreciation of who you are and of the self. But it’s the self grasping mind that is like the selfish mind, okay, which is the one that needs to be destroyed.
Yeah. Yeah. Michael was saying he’d read somewhere about this self grasping mind is like the self important mind. One of the best ones, the classic ones, is that there’s only one piece of chocolate left, you know, and rather than leave it to someone else, you know, oh I’m more important, I’ll have that piece of chocolate. I mean, you may not even consciously say I’m more important, but it’s sort of like the mind that wants to give to you before it gives to somebody else.
And that is different, as Michael was saying, too, this sense of self esteem. It’s interesting. See, self esteem doesn’t actually come up a lot in Buddhism because it seems to be something that Westerners particularly have a problem with, low self esteem. Certainly from all the Tibetan teachings I’ve had, it’s not something that comes up very often. There seems to be quite a healthy sense of your abilities.