Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. “The far side of the mountain, once alien and strange, becomes familiar simply by moving toward it” — Ven Jampa Gendun uses this image to anchor his 28-minute commentary on the practice of exchanging self for others. He opens by clearing a persistent misreading: the self-cherishing to be dissolved is not genuine self-care but habitual grasping at a false self — even self-destructive people, he notes, are as self-centered as anyone. Drawing on verses from Śāntideva, he builds toward practical empathy training, carefully distinguishing empathy from sympathy with the illustration of an unusually tall person. The session closes with guided exercises: stepping into the perspective of a partner, a checkout clerk, a homeless beggar, or a person of the opposite gender, then looking back at one’s former self from each position. Suited to practitioners already studying bodhicitta.
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File: 20 HMA 1997 03 19.mp3
UUID: 8e4d87ca-b838-431b-b51c-89a422f1a313
Teacher: Ven Jampa Gendun
Collection: The Heart and Mind of Awakening 1996-1997 (Ven Jampa Gendun)
Date: 1997-03-19
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 28.2 minutes
Words: ~3,816
It’s an object of cherishing. That is to say ourselves for the cherishing of others. To exchange oneself with others is to reverse a former attitude. The thought of endearment and cherishing of oneself with its feelings of indifference toward others should now be reversed as follows. One should feel indifferent to oneself, reduce the force of clinging to ones self, and rather hold the welfare of other sentient beings as precious.
This is the meaning of exchanging oneself with others. The degree of high value one feels toward oneself should now return toward others. You know, have talked about, I think I mentioned last week that this factor of self centeredness doesn’t come about it doesn’t have any rational basis, it doesn’t have any reasonable basis or pragmatic utilitarian basis. It is simply a force of habit, a force of conditioning. We don’t cherish ourselves because we are the most kind to ourselves, that we bring ourselves the most happiness.
And I pointed out the fact that many people who are self destructive, who are self abusive, who have a great deal of self hatred, are nonetheless as self-cherishing as anyone else, as self centered as anyone at all. So our self centered doesn’t really have any reasonable if we were in fact the one in this world who brought about our greatest happiness to ourselves, then maybe our self centeredness could somehow be justified, but it doesn’t seem to be the case. It is matter it’s simply a matter of conditioning. You know, we can now we treat others we have a sense of of indifference toward others, or even a sense of hostility, or at least sense of defensiveness or a sense of attitude of exploitation whereby others are seen as a resource for ourselves. You know, there’s a sense of foreignness about others, a sense of otherness about others.
You know, but, you know, when we you know, the notion that we’re going to work with here, you know, the process of of reacquainting ourselves, that the far side of the mountain, when we move toward it, what we can come to be thought of as the near side. You know, it’s a sense of when you like, when you move into a new house, it feels very foreign. It feels there’s an uneasiness, something new. It feels very strange to ourselves. But eventually, it begins to feel like home to ourselves simply through the practice of accustoming ourselves to it.
It becomes familiar to ourselves. The far side, what was the far side and distant and strange can become the near, the known, the familiar, the comfortable. So, you know, our conditioned attitude of self centeredness is transferred to others. That is, others begin to be perceived like the self of our self centeredness. And now we’re most comfortable with the self of self centeredness.
Others in this transference, this exchange, this re identification, others now begin to feel like the near side. Others now feel like the far side, like something foreign, something other, something rather strange, alien to ourselves. What is now the near side, the self of self centeredness, is begin begins to feel more and more like the far side, like the alien, like the foreign, as we now perceive others. So we no longer identify the self of our self centeredness with ourselves. You know, we don’t have to.
Perhaps we’ve never discriminated between the two, and therefore, it’s never been known. But we now we no longer identify identify the self of others as others, but as the self of our present self centeredness. So this is where we begin to exchange self for others. So in this in this this quotation which was by Lama Zopa, you know, when he talks about one should feel indifference to oneself, and he’s he’s not meaning that in that we are to neglect ourselves as it were. But we are to neglect one should feel indifferent to oneself, that is to reduce the force of clinging to oneself and rather hold the the other’s welfare as being precious.
This is the self that we now the way that we now regard other’s self, that we hold other’s self as being indifferent, that we have a sense of indifference too. We now identify with that self, and we hold we have a sense of indifference toward that. You know, this has to be understood well, that we aren’t to neglect ourselves. It is the self self centeredness and the self which we how we look at upon others, we are to be indifferent to. Often people have asked me, does this mean that it’s somehow wrong to look after ourselves and care for our own needs?
It cannot be said too often that the self-cherishing which is destroyed by compassion is the grasping and cherishing of a false self. To say that self-cherishing is the root of all harm should never be misunderstood as meaning either that it is selfish or wrong to be kind to ourselves. Being generous to ourselves, making friends with ourselves, and uncovering our own kindness and confidence are central to and implicit in the teachings. We uncover our own good heart, our fundamental goodness, and that is the aspect of ourselves we identify with and encourage. Psychotherapists say too that one of the core tasks for their clients is to develop self respect and positive self regard, to heal their feelings of lack and inner inner impoverishment, and to allow them to experience the experience of well-being that is the essential part of our development as human beings.
So, you know, it’s I think it’s useful to think about the fact that that on the one hand, our self centeredness is both dysfunctional and has no rational basis in terms of bringing about our own welfare. And on the other hand, other centeredness is both functional and has a rational basis, some kind of pragmatic basis. So what is it but the force of unthinking habit and the lack of analysis and effort that stops us from exchanging self for others. So I’m going to quote from Śāntideva as he begins to analyze the notion of this the way that we can actually meditate and work with this idea of exchanging self for others. So but I guess it has to be emphasized.
It’s not a neglect of oneself. It’s not we are we are not to have indifference to oneself. The self we are to we are seeking to exchange is the self of our self centeredness, that self that we hold so dear presently. We are beginning to transfer it, identify that self with others. And the self of our present other centeredness that which we hold indifferent, that we that we that we see as an object for somehow bringing about our welfare in one way or another.
That that is the object that we are to identify with as as the self of self centeredness. We’re not to neglect ourselves, you know, as a in terms of we are to oh, this is the way that we can actually express our compassion for ourselves, a way that we can actually stop stop hurting ourselves. If I do not actually exchange my happiness for the suffering of others, I shall not attain the state of Buddhahood, and even in cyclic existence shall have no joy, let alone what is beyond this world. By rejecting the method that establishes both foreseeable and unforeseeable joy, I cast magnificent light completely aside. And then because of afflicting misery on others and confusion, I seize hold of unbearable pain.
If all the injury, fear, and pain in this world arises from grasping at itself, then what use is that grasping to me? If I do not completely forsake it, I shall not I shall be unable to put an end to suffering just as I cannot avoid being burnt if I do not cast aside the fire that I hold. Therefore, in order to allay the harm inflicted upon me and in order to pacify the suffering of others, I shall give myself up to others and cherish them as I do my very self. So what we are seeking to exchange and exchange itself for others is the object of our cherishing. You know, rather than at present cherishing ourselves alone, perceiving, assessing, and responding to everything and everyone from totally a self orientated perspective, we’re trying to cultivate an attitude of cherishing of others.
You know, the cultivation of an other orientated perspective, a social perspective, a social conscious, a multifaceted perspective which which we begin to naturally take into consideration that there are other people in this world besides our solitary selves in the way that we conduct our lives. And this requires some kind of inner transformation, some kind of change. And we have to become, in some sense, the person that we love. That is the we have to begin to practice empathy and being able to identify with the plight and difficulties in the world of others. And then we have to develop a new perspective, this this multifaceted perspective.
You know, now we see everything only from one perspective, the perspective of self centeredness, this exaggerated sense of self concern. So when now we try to see the world, including ourselves, and what and whatever we say and whatever we do out of other people’s eyes. You know, how how does what I say and do, how is my being in this world, how does it affect others? Becoming sensitive to that fact. And you’re trying to empathize with others spontaneously, identify spontaneously with their situation.
You know, practice putting ourselves in other people’s shoes, in other people’s world, looking at the world out of other people’s eyes. Empathy is very different from sympathy. Sympathy too is important but much less so. With compassion, we feel deeply for the other, with feelings of sympathy with him. For example, if we think he is distressed, we feel sorry for him that he feels so badly.
In empathy, we experience for brief periods the feelings of the other. That is, we feel the same way he does. There can be no empathy without compassion and sympathy. But for empathy to occur, another experience must implement them, an introspection which, on the basis of our experience, permits us to feel as the other person does. If we can’t feel within ourselves something closely akin to what is going on in the other person through introspection, then we can’t empathetically understand him.
This may be illustrated by a simple example. We see a person who is unusually tall. It is not to be disputed that this person’s unusual size is an important fact for a psychological assessment. Without introspection and empathy, however, his size remains simply a physical attribute. Only when we think ourselves into his place by by vicarious introspection, begin to feel his unusual size as if it were our own, and thus revive inner experience in which we had been unusual or conspicuous.
Only then there begins for us to appreciate the meaning of the unusual size, the meaning that it may have for this person. The word sympathy is best rendered as feeling with feeling with somebody. Empathy requires, in addition, a feeling oneself into somebody. So what through systematically cultivating empathy and re identifying through role play, our sense of self the sense of self of self centeredness, you know, with begins to be exchanged for the self of others. You know, the the the locus, the location of the of our centeredness, what we’re going to center on.
The that object, that self we’re going to center on, that we’re going to be most concerned with begins to shift to others. You know, our frame of reference become more and more other centered, more more and more other orientated. And we become more and more centered around others and less and less centered around ourselves. The world is perceived and begins becomes assessed and responded to to a greater and greater extent in the terms of others, you know, rather than exclusively in our own terms. Developing some kind of agility of mind, some flexibility of mind.
Presently, we’re extremely rigid. That we’re we’re very we’re very stuck in seeing everything and everyone from one exclusive point of view, our own. Or more accurately, from the point of view of the self of self centeredness. Through training in this actual exchange of self for others, we develop a more universal perspective. We’re able to view situations from a multifaceted perspective.
We’re able to see the same situation spontaneously, automatically, instinctively, naturally out of other people’s eyes. You know, taking into consideration what’s going on in the world of others quite naturally and spontaneously. Naturally, non artificially. You know, in the the very context in which we be in this world, our being in this world becomes instinctively begins to instinctively, automatically include others, you know, our values, our beliefs. How we’re going to conduct our our life begins to take into consideration how is my life affecting others?
How is my conduct, my way of being, my interaction? And what impact does it have upon the world, upon my community? You know, automatically taking into consideration the needs and the wants of others, automatically in what we do and what we say and how we do it and how we say it. You know, how are our actions affecting others? You know, we understand others because more and more we are able to set aside our own agendas, our own issues, and see them as they are in themselves and how their world is appears out of their eyes.
To see them for themselves, to to understand others because we can you know, to understand is to love. To love is to understand. You know, the American Indian expression to be able to, you know, to not judge another person until you walked a month a month in their moccasins, that we practice walking in other people’s moccasins and we know what it means to be them. So spontaneously and naturally beginning to see how our way of being in this world is affecting them. A A social awareness, if you like.
So in Śāntideva’s text, he he he takes up the way that we are to proceed in our training. And he demonstrates he makes use of three categories of individuals. But in the in in the actual text, the Bodhicaryāvatāra, we exchange ourselves with others in terms of someone we have a sense that is inferior in some way to ourselves, someone who is we feel is equal in in various ways to ourselves, and others another person who, in some ways, we we see as superior to ourselves and putting ourselves in their place, seeing the world out of their eyes, thinking their thoughts, feeling their feelings, how would it be to be them training this way, training in in the ability to empathize and to identify, to vicariously introspect, how would it be for them? You know, being able to look at have a sense extrapolating from our own experience what they might be going through. So, you know, we’re going to look at those next week.
Those three categories which uses to illustrate the method of training. But you know, we In practicing we should We can use all the various categories of people, all the varieties of people, you know, Exchange places with those close to you, your husbands and your wives, your partners, your mothers and fathers, you know, your children. You know, feel their feelings. Think how would it be to be them to to be in their world, look at the world out of their eyes as best we can setting aside one’s own agendas, one’s own issues, looking at the world from their point of view, from their perspective, developing that ability to instinctively, naturally be able to do this. And then we we look back at our former self, you know, we’ve exchanged ourselves as it were for them, and we look back at our former selves, this the person that we once were, you know, of our our former selves.
And what do we see? You know, what do you experience when you look back? What do you feel when you look back at your former self? You know, if you and we’re going to do this. You know, if you were to take your partner, for example, or or a parent or a child and just just be able to vicariously enter into their world as best you can, feeling their feelings, looking at their thoughts, looking at the world out of their eyes, and looking back at the person you once before you exchange yourself for them.
You know, and you and you look back at yourself. Now what is it that you feel? What is it that you see when you look back at yourself? And expressing it to your former self. Now do you feel do you feel valued?
Do you feel loved? Do you feel respected? Do you feel understood when you look back at your former self? And then we can explain exchange places with people we come in contact with over the course of our, you know, our usual everyday life, you know, acquaintances and work colleagues and clerks and and tradespeople. You know, how does it feel to be them?
You know, we we people we we can people are no longer simply formed objects to which we interact with, but we more and more have it have experienced them as feeling beings. We’ve more and more have accustomed ourselves to entering into their world in some kind of spontaneous manner. People who want happiness and don’t want to suffer just like us, must, but with all their peculiarities, their unique situation in life. And what does it mean to be you know, when you’re going out to check out and there’s this checkout person that’s been you know, you’re the five hundredth customer that’s gone by them today. And what would you want from yourself if you were that checkout person?
Maybe just a smile or say, you know, how are you? Maybe that would make their day. Maybe that would make your day as a checkout person or something. Something would naturally come in some way of relating which was other centered, which was meaningful in those terms of wanting happiness and not wanting to suffer in this particular this person’s unique situation, their their particular values and perspective of life and their beliefs. Then how would you feel to be them, to be one of these people, you know, when you’re looking back at your former self, your usual former self, and how we normally treat people in our usual way of life.
And then would you would you look back at yourself and would you simply see indifference? Would you see pity? Would you see compassion? You fear, defensiveness, mistrust. You can see a lot of things looking back to your form of self.
And extreme exchanging yourself with, you know, a beggar out on the street. You know, the the person that we can normally walk by with if we’re able a degree of indifference as if they were an object and not a feeling being like ourselves. But now we can’t we don’t we not only don’t can’t avoid entering into their world, their experience, but actually consciously participating in how they might be feeling. And how would it be to be a homeless beggar on the street watching people going by and holding out your hand to your former self and looking into your former self’s eyes? What what do you see when you look in the eyes of your former self?
And do you see do you see fear? Do you fear see compassion, mistrust, contempt, pity? And how would it be to to exchange oneself with someone of the opposite sex and in a terms of gender? How would it be to be a member of in terms of gender, of an opposite gender, of the opposite sex? You know, how would it be to be living their experience of how they might live their world in those in terms of gender?
And so, know, we we begin to become sensitive. We become we become aware of of what we’re doing and how it’s affecting people spontaneously and naturally. You know, and living if only vicariously in that person’s world of and looking back at your former self out of from the out of their eyes in terms of being a member of the opposite gender? And what is it that you say? What you know, what would you feel if you looked about if you looked at your former self?
Would you would you feel oppressed? Would you feel understood? Would you feel objectified? Would you feel valued? You know, beginning to naturally begin to identify with the world of others and begin to gain an insight into perhaps our own spontaneous, at present habitual, self centered ways, moments of relating with others.
So anyway, we’re going to investigate this more. So the exchange of self for others, we’re going the ability to develop it of the ability to spontaneously enter into the subjective realm of another being, to experience their world in terms of feeling, in terms of value, and belief, and developing in it so that such that our our life becomes integrated with the world about us. What judgments our conduct the way that we we are in this world is is takes into consideration quite spontaneously that we’re living that we’re social beings living in a world with others, sensitive to their needs, considerate of their wants. Something like that. Awakening to others, I guess.
Awakening our heart to others. So we’ll stop there. We’ll go we’ll continue this next week. So we dedicate the merit that we’ve accumulated. In the land and encircled by snow mountains, you are the source of all happiness and well-being.
The powerful Chenrezig Tenzin Gyatso, please remain to the end of cyclic existence. May I quickly become an awakened spiritual master and lead each and every living being to the awakened realm through these skillful actions. May the supreme jewel, the awakened heart, that has not yet arisen arise and grow, and may that which has arisen never diminish but increase more and more. Thank you very much. If you’d like to get a cup of tea, you can stay for discussion.
Otherwise, have a good week. Thank you.