Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 47-minute session, Ven Jampa Gendun leads students through live debate exercises from the Collected Topics logic curriculum. The class focuses on pervasion — the question of whether, if something is A, it must necessarily be B — working through basic categories like consciousness, form, color, sound, space, and thing. Students take turns proposing and defending positions (fire is pervaded by heat; form is not pervaded by color) while Ven Jampa Gendun corrects errors in real time and sketches Venn diagrams to clarify the relationships. The session builds toward a four-part framework distinguishing A pervaded by B, A not pervaded by B, A pervaded by not-B, and A not pervaded by not-B, with students challenged to find concrete examples for each. Well suited to students new to Buddhist logic and debate.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 35 CT 1988 06 28.mp3
UUID: 7b65d0b2-8f6d-444c-8b62-5ba0f6011e6f
Teacher: Ven Jampa Gendun
Collection: Collected Topics (Ven Jampa Gendun)
Date: 1988-06-28
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 47.2 minutes
Words: ~3,291
An existent which is a thing. Consciousness is subject. It is not an existent which is not consciousness. It is not it is not an existent which is not consciousness. That sounds better.
It is not an existent which is not consciousness. It is not an existent which is not consciousness. Why? Consciousness. Because so if you if you just if you cross these out, because it is an existence which is consciousness.
And then b? And not a? Space. Space. Space.
Space is a subject. It is an existent which is not consciousness. Space as a subject it is an existent which is not which is it is not an existent which is the thing. Yeah. It’s good.
So it’s I think it’s coming. It was just a little maybe a little bit more complicated. F one. With respect to existent which is the thing and form which is which is not another color. What is the what is the pervasion?
Okay. Let’s look for something which is both. Sound. Sound is the subject. It is an existent, which is a thing.
Sound is the subject. It is a form which is not a color. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody getting a hang of this.
Okay. Then we say, a, not b. Alright. Anybody else? Visible form.
Visible form. Anybody does everybody agree with that? Visible form? No. Okay.
Yeah. You debate with Rudy. Because? Because it is a color. Because it is a color.
Color. Good. Very good. Very good. Did you get did you fall that way?
So what is that? I don’t know if that’s right. Okay. So we’re take we’re taking this whole thing. You take physical form as the subject.
Yeah. It is not a it is not a form which is not a color. I mean, this is your this is your thesis. Visible form is the subject? Now you blurred the head.
Know? It it is not it is not not form which is not a color because it is form which is not a color. And we’re looking for knots. So why? It’s invisible form is a form, but it’s but it’s but it’s not a color.
And we want something which is not not a color. So what’s the only thing we can put there? Color. That’s right, Sue. Color.
Or, you know, you can put it yeah. You can say color or give an example of a color. So color is the subject. It is not a form which is not color. So you can say, why?
Because it is form and is a color. That’s gonna think that’s that’s challenging, but I mean, it’s it’s kind of just working, playing with this around your mind. It’s just there’s nothing that you don’t know. It’s just getting used to working with the idea. It’s kind of loosening up the idea.
So oh, how about b b and not a? B and not a? Something which is form which is not a color and not existent which is a thing. So what? It has if it’s this b thing, whatever we choose for b has to be what?
It has to be form and not a color. And whatever we choose for a must be an existent not an existent which is a thing or not an existent which is a thing. Not an existent which is a thing. So what does that mean? It can’t be an existent with a thing.
Has to be an existent which is not a thing. It means it would have to be a not a not thing or a non thing. What do you call it? Non thing? It has to be a permanent phenomenon.
So this has this has to be a form which is which is not a color. This has to be a non thing. Is there anything? So there’s nothing. Yeah.
Everybody fall a little bit. If if something whatever is b, whatever this b thing, you know, you know, we’re trying to apples, oranges, people, consciousnesses, space. It has to whatever it is, it has to be both form and it has to be not a color. So we could say, well, if it’s form and not a color, maybe it’s consciousness. You know, we’ll just say it for the moment because consciousness is is both not is both form but and it’s not a color.
But up here, if it has to it has to be not a. Right? So it has to be something which is an existent which is not a thing. So it has to be an existent but it can’t be a thing. And a not not an existent, which is a thing.
Not an existent, which is a thing, which is the same as saying existent, which is a not thing or non thing. So it has to be a non thing, doesn’t it? Like space or something. So is there anything which is yeah, consciousness is not a non thing. There’s nothing we could put down here which would be this too, which would a non thing.
Therefore, there’s there’s nothing. So then what would be the pervasion here? So there’s no common locus. If there is no common locus, there’s nothing which is a and not b, but what? But there’s nothing which is b and not a.
So what is it? Three possibilities. So you can yeah. Three possibilities. Why?
First off, there’s a common locus. So it’s if there was no common locus, then it would be what? mutually exclusive. Right? There’s no common locus and it’s mutually exclusive then we’re finished.
If there’s a common locus then it can be either one of three things, but one of three possibilities left over. What are they? Or yeah. So if if it’s a common locus, then it’s either mutually inclusive. Three possibilities or four possibilities.
So then we check. If we say, Well, if this object is A, is there something which is A and not Something which is A and not B? Yes. The answer is yes. If there is something which is B and not a?
Something which is b and not a? Yes. In this case no. Then we would have to go on further wouldn’t we? Where is it is everything that’s AB?
Is everything that’s BA? Well, since we already had one now so so there there are some a’s which are b which are which are what? Which are a b. If it’s a then okay. How did we go through to determine which whether whether something was three possibilities or four possibilities?
Let’s take form. Take a very simple example. Form and thing. First we look for a common locus, a and b. Yeah.
What would be a common locus form and thing? Table. Then we see if it is a how did I put that? If it is a, is it pervaded by b and b? If if if Is that the way I put it?
If a? The other one debating three and four possibilities. Yeah. Here it is. Debating three possibilities.
Maybe you’re right. I put it very oh, yeah. Here. Okay. But, yeah, the bottom of them.
Okay. So the bottom of this, collected topics. Yeah. Oh, you’re right. So in determining the pervasion between a and b, first if you can find an object which is both a and b, and you okay.
Then we exclude mutually exclusive. Right? There’s something which is both. If there’s if something which is mutually exclusive, there’s nothing which is both. But here, if we can find something which is both, then we can say, well, it’s not mutually exclusive.
Then we check. If an object is a, is it pervaded or is it necessarily b? So if if something is formed, is it necessarily a thing? If A, then B. So if something is a form, is it necessarily a thing?
Necessarily? Pervaded by being a thing? So this is what? Yes. Okay then we go on.
Yes or no? If the same object It’s the same okay. Okay. If if we pick an object, pick an object which is, which is form if it is form and then it’s a thing, then it’s pervaded by being a thing. How’s it that object?
Table. Okay. Table is the subject. It is is form? It is a thing.
Okay. Table is the subject. And if the same if the same object is b, it is pervaded by a. So Okay then. It’s not the same object.
Doesn’t make sense. Okay. If if if something is is a thing, is it pervaded by being formed? NA? So the answer is what?
No? What for example, positive? So if one answer is yes and the other is no, then what? Is the relationship between form and thing? Three possibilities.
That means you have a relationship like this. They have form in here, and you have thing. Whatever is in whatever is inside this circle is completely pervaded by the larger circle, pervaded by thing. Whatever is thing isn’t necessarily in this circle. There’s there’s things outside this circle.
So it doesn’t have to be form. So whatever is a form has to be a thing. Whatever is a thing doesn’t have to be form. There’s things out here squirming around. Maybe we’ll we’ll go over that some more next week.
And you can say you can just take a look at that and I mean, it’s it’s it’s a little bit complicated. Just big not the information just because they’re complicated subjects. You you might think about this. A is pervaded by b. A is not pervaded by b.
A is pervaded by knot b. A is not pervaded by not b. So those are yeah. Just just playing around. Maybe we can Everybody try to think of examples which would satisfy all these.
You know, a can be anything, b can be anything. But something an a which is pervaded by b, and then an a which is not pervaded by b, and then an a which is pervaded by not b, and an a which is not pervaded by not a. So would two people like to sit and answer the questions while everyone else puts the question. Any volunteers? So we have we have a volunteer in the crowd.
We still what was your name, please? Let’s step right up. Let’s give her a big hand. Okay. Let’s take a look at this sheet that we handed out last week.
Last week we were looking at B-ness and its not-ness. As you remember. Let’s let’s let’s I I asked to do a little bit of homework last week. A is pervaded by b. So does everyone feel confident that they could give to satisfy this statement that they could give some object which is A and B?
Don’t you? Haven’t talked about I don’t know. What do you want to just kind of off the top of your head? Fire is pervaded by heat. Fire is necessarily.
A is necessarily B. A is pervaded by B. Yeah? Kimble? Everybody agree with that?
Anybody disagree with that? Can you show a counterexample? Something which is fire not pervaded by heat? Could be, but just for the moment we’re discussing whether fire is is pervaded by heat. Fire is pervaded by heat.
Is that true? Is that statement or false? One, two. What do you think, really? Fifty fifty?
Fifty two. What do you think, it’s true or false? Anytime you have a fire? I can’t can’t tell you. I I say, you can’t have heat without fire.
That’s my You can’t. How about this? How about electric heater? Margaret, what do think fire is pervaded by heat? Don’t really understand.
Okay, in any case of fire? No. Any type of fire that we can imagine? Is it necessarily heat present there? Yeah?
Do I do? Yeah, think so. I think so this fire is pervaded by heat. Does everybody kind of get a feel for that? Yeah?
So, know, if there’s something which is A, whatever A is, if an object is A, then it must be necessarily B. If an object is fired, then it must be heat or yeah. Necessarily heat. So this would if we do a diagram, so this would be a, b. So it’s just like, you know, everything inside this circle has a quality of B, and everything inside this little circle has a quality of A.
Anything which is A is pervaded by B. Like pervaded by B. Someone give another example? Body is mind. Is body pervaded by mind?
Not is body pervaded by mind, but is body pervaded by mind. If an object is body, is it necessarily mind? So is body pervaded by mind? Body is necessarily mind. So whatever is body, for example And it exists in anybody, the minds around.
Okay, that’s a good point. So you’re saying that any place there’s a body there must be mind. Rather than is, you’re talking about existence. Yeah? Know, any place there’s a sentient being there has to be mind.
Any place there’s a body there has to be mind. But is any object which is body, is it necessarily mind? Yeah, because body is body. Yeah, it’s not mind. So can you give me another example?
How about if we just say A is form, for example? If an object is form, is it pervaded by anything else? Does it have to have something else as its quality? All it it must have another quality. Any sound has its quality.
Okay, if A is sound, as A is form, form is pervaded by what? Example. Form is necessarily what? Form is necessarily Color is derived from form. That’s a good one, okay.
Color? Yeah. So color would be this a, and then everything and form would be b. Anything which is a color is necessarily a form. This A is color and B is form.
There are things Anything in here, in this small circle, is color and form, but anything outside of it is merely form. It’s not necessarily color. It’s not color. Can you hear something, Margaret? Something substitute for A in here and B?
For example, where you say A was consciousness? Consciousness is necessary. So having necessary qualities which always goes together with it? Thing. That’s right.
Consciousness is pervaded by thing. Consciousness is A, thing is B. Whatever is a consciousness is necessary thing. Then A is not pervaded by B. For example?
Form, color. Form is not pervaded by color. Anybody disagree? Form is not. So if an object is formed, it is not pervaded by color.
It is not pervaded by color. If an object is form, A is form and B is color, So a is form, b is color. It’s a b there. So anything so you know, there are some forms which are color, but not all forms are color. Anybody name a form which is not color?
Sound. Sound is not so sound is out here somewhere. It’s not a color. A is pervaded by not B. There’s a a is pervaded by not b.
Linda, you want to have a go? Give it a go. Give it a guess. Just think of some object here for A. Let’s say form, okay? Form is pervaded by not being, by being not something.
It has to be not something. Form is pervaded by So something which is necessarily not form, not a quality of form. You have an object here form and it has many different qualities. It’s a thing that it could have the quality of sound, color, existence. But there are certain qualities that it’s pervaded by not having.
It necessarily doesn’t have this quality. Some quality which definitely has no relationship, Which form has no quality? Form is pervaded by not permanent. Anybody agree? Why?
Because form is pervaded by permanent impermanent. That’s right? That’s good. Everybody agree with that? Form is pervaded by not consciousness?
Whatever is a form is not consciousness. That’s right. Form is not pervaded by not be. Alastair? My example for A is.
He is that which is clear and knowing? Clear and knowing. Whatever is a consciousness is not pervaded by not being clear and knowing. Whatever is consciousness is not pervaded by not clear knowing. Why?
Because it’s pervaded by clear knowing. A is pervaded by B. A, whatever is consciousness, is not pervaded by being not clear in knowing. Can you give anybody to come up with another one? If we say we’ll put form here, that’s A.
Form is not pervaded by? Not being eye consciousness. That’s what I looked at, but I’m not sure about it. What do you think, Dan? You think these are mostly inclusive?
Is whatever is a form, is it not necessarily not consciousness, or is it necessarily not consciousness? Or is it not necessarily not consciousness? It’s not consciousness. So it’s not necessarily not consciousness. It’s necessarily not consciousness.
Therefore it’s not pervaded by being not consciousness. It’s not pervaded. Okay, well we have some form here. So this thing is necessarily not consciousness. So it’s not this thing.
It’s not that thing. It’s pervaded by being not consciousness. It’s this one here, this third one here. It’s not this fourth one. Former consciousness.
Can someone give another example of this fourth? A is not pervaded by not b. Is not pervaded by not not impermanent. Form is not pervaded by impermanence. So can anybody give a permanent?
Not permanent. So you say impermanent. Not permanent. Impermanent. Impermanent.
Form is not pervaded? What? Form is not created by being what do you think goes here? Permanent? Permanent by not permanent?
Permanent. Permanent. Everybody. So form is not pervaded by not impermanent. That means, yeah, form is not pervaded by permit.
Is it different? Form is pervaded by impermanence and form is not pervaded by permanent. Is there any difference between those? No. Form is not necessarily permanent.
Form is necessarily impermanent. How about if we said a man, an Australian? Man is not necessarily Australian. Man is necessarily not Australian. Are they different statements?
Man is not necessarily Australian. Man is necessarily not Australian. So those are quite different statements. So here it doesn’t show up, but there would be cases where it would be quite different statements. Australian.
So is that a good example to take for that thing to substitute? It worked. Worked. Well, because you told us, I mean, I don’t know whether because form is impermanent, but a a man isn’t necessarily Australian. That’s right.
So I don’t know whether that’s a fair way of checking that thing. The what she substitutes for A and B work here. But we’re talking about what what is there a difference between a is not pervaded by b. Is that equal to a is pervaded by not b? Are these equal statements?
Can we substitute A and B in both Can we always substitute A and B in one statement and it’ll work in this statement also? So in this case, what form is impermanent. Form is not pervaded by what do we say? It is not pervaded by permanent. Let’s take a look at this.
Let’s see. B and its not-ness. So in the last week we were working with this idea. What’s the relationship between thing which is green and existent? What is pervasion?
Which prevents which? The thing pervaded by which is green. Okay.