Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. A candid debate over physical punishment in Tibetan monasteries makes this 57-minute interview with Khensur Rinpoche stand out. The session opens with a detailed account of daily life at Sera Monastery in Lhasa — debate periods, communal tea gatherings, and the collective recitation from memory of core texts like the Ornament for Clear Realization. Rinpoche explains how lay donors sustained monastic life and how Chinese repression drove an influx of monks from Darge to Lhasa. The conversation sharpens when Rinpoche defends beating students as an act of compassion to correct poor study habits, while his interviewer pushes back from a Western perspective, eventually raising the Dalai Lama’s adoption of Montessori methods as a non-violent alternative.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 43 RS 1991 03 25.mp3
UUID: 54481617-3a9c-49cf-a0b1-724bcdf0911e
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1991-03-25
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 57.6 minutes
Words: ~4,329
This is Monday, the twenty fifth of March nineteen ninety one, and I’m about to interview Rinpoche on monastic life at Sera Monastery in Lhasa. Sera Je and Sera May. So it would only be that first morning prayer. So they have after the morning prayer session, they have colleges have the individual debate sessions. Right.
And then So in general, they wouldn’t have it a prayer session after the debate session, but on special occasions they might. Just but only on special occasions. Ah, and then it goes to talk about they having tea and they have black tea after this session. Maybe there’s only special occasions and they bring their own tsampa for debating. Yes.
After debate? Yeah. Debate and then they’ll have a period when there’s no debate during the course of this study. Break, yeah. Break periods.
And so, if they’re during a debate period, then the colleges would have a regular meet because the They would they would they, yeah, they would have they would be served at They would give them tea after debate at each of the colleges. So that’s Sera Je or Sarah May, not Dray Hall. It’s the same same. Right? But they both would do it after the debate?
Right. Then during the debate session? So whether they had debate session period or not, then at this time, they would gather together and have tea, black tea, both Sera May and Sera Je. Oh, independently. So — tsog cho?
Yeah. And then we just had here but the the tokus and geshis would get butter with theirs. And then the geshis and tulkus. So, I said they’d been given butter tea. Oh, Oh, they mix yeah.
Special. But all the monks would have to provide their own tsampa. Yeah. So the trouble is the source of the tsampa. So at a time when Rinpoche was very poor and he didn’t have any tsampa Mhmm.
Or other monks like him, then they would just have to have tea and nothing. Pay some They would they would borrow they would borrow tsampa From their from other people. Particular ceremony only happens sometimes. The drinking of tea? Well, yeah, and I’ve got something about they have two cups and they have fifteen minutes, and then they have another fifteen minutes sitting.
So this So in normally, they would recite it wasn’t there was no special ceremony at this time in except on special occasions and when there was some a donor came and made an offering. But generally, they would recite one of the two texts that they were studying, either the Ornament for Clear Realization or the Entering into the Middle Way, they would recite the text. Oh, after they had their tea? So they would — yeah. So they would recite it at this time.
They — for memorization — they’d recite one of their two texts. And then they would — they then recited it. Mhmm. After — so first — the Jogadas. They would sit down and recite the going for refuge, the recitation of the mind generation and development of the awakening heart and motivation.
Then they would drink their tea. Uh-huh. Then they would recite from memory one of the texts. Not the whole text, but segments of the text. Together in unison.
The topics — so, yeah, they would first recite together. So they would just like we recite Lama Chöpa together, they would recite — they didn’t have a text in front of them. They did it from memory. First, they recite the Ornament for Clear Realization, then they would recite entering into the middle way.
So they’d go through different sections each time and then pick up the next section the next time. Shim Shim Donga. They get a bit. The entire text. Not not not the entire text. So each day they wouldn’t recite the entire text.
They’d recite maybe one chapter or two chapters from a Yeah. And then but they eventually they would recite the day they’d continue from where they left off Oh, that’s quite interesting. But that’s is that every day during debate or every day during break time? This is only during debate session. Only during the debate period.
So they just sort of sharpen up their minds for arguing perhaps to get the, yeah, the text refreshed or something. The the reason for Yeah. So they — this is the texts — these are generally the texts that they’re studying, and so it’s important that they be able to have these in their mind and sort of aid their memory and their study. Yeah. And help for the debate then.
They should have. They Yeah. Yeah. Just wanted to check something about like, they debated till ten o’clock, and then they drink their tea quickly, and then they do this recitation. The Is that correct?
Yeah. Then then they would have their tea. Good. I wondered if Rinpoche could just explain a little bit more about donors because we keep on getting reference to it in all sorts of different areas, and I I don’t fully understand it’d be to put in a bit more explanation. The the the Yes.
Just in general. Different reasons for acting as donors, making donations. Sometimes it would be if someone had died, they would make offerings or if somebody were sick or if they had some plan that they wanted to go well, they would make offerings in order to create a positive merit. This is the reason that people generally acted as as donors or patrons, and they might give money. Some some generally, give money, but sometimes they would give food off a meal.
So money for all of the monks? Or individually or for the college? The is sometimes they would give to just individual monks and then additionally give to the the monastery as a whole or the college as a whole. Sometimes they would just give to the college or just to the monks. They’re both possibilities. And with the individual donors, was there some special connection between different families such that some would give to Sera May and some to Sera Je or some to Dre Hall?
Jinda. Jinda. Different reasons for giving to one particular college or district house. It was usually according to if they had relationships, monks who were monk relations. Relatives. Relatives who were part of that. But sometimes so they would probably give to that particular district house or that particular college.
Sometimes they had relatives in both colleges, so they would give to both colleges. That’s really interesting. They’re wearing their cloaks when they were drinking tea. Oh, right. They just take them off for debate.
Right. That’s alright. So I just had that a bit confused. Take them — then — and take off your cloaks and continue on. Sitting in the same positions and just as they were in your morning Okay.
So that’s how it was. So at about eleven thirty, then the bell would ring, and they’d finish their debate and then they’d gather again. And sometimes the abbot would come and give teachings on Lam Rim. Uh-huh. Or sometimes if he didn’t come, they would just do prayers of vajra Tārā.
And at the Heart of Wisdom Sūtra, they would recite that. Just themselves? Yeah. Not necessarily with the Abbott? He would only come on occasions.
Oh. And at those times, he would usually teach Lam Rim or something like that. I see. Right. Other times, they would just recite these prayers, and this would last for about half an hour.
Right. And we’ve got something about a chanting master. So was the chanting master there when the abbot wasn’t? What’s his name in Tibetan — chanting master? I have to find out the name of that in English.
Dukhar. Dukhar. Yeah. This is dukhar. Oh.
So they they wouldn’t recite Tārā. They would recite dukhar. Alright. So you check. The cups of the tea — the chanting master always comes.
Is the chantingness. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. They don’t they did tara in the evening.
Don’t Not here. Alright. Just check if that’s right. After this, then they’d go to their individual rooms and have tea and have lunch, have meal. Oh, right.
I didn’t think that. Individual debate for about five minutes. Oh, only five minutes Mhmm. After these prayers. So after that after that five minutes, most most of them would go to the rooms, but maybe it’s some of them a few of them might continue to debate, but it wasn’t mandatory.
Just but most would go away to their individual rooms. That was lunchtime, wasn’t The kalak socha. Kalak socha. Tea and food. And they they provide their own tea, and they cook themselves.
And the khamtsen socha. Khamtsen socha. Yeah. The district houses would have an assembly at which time they would be served a meal and food. But there wasn’t that they would have to make their own meal and food. During this five minute debate period, the disciplinarians would walk around three times to make sure that everybody was attending and that they were debating. But it was literally only a five minute period.
Some I might stay ten minutes, and I might stay fifteen. Yeah. So five to fifteen minutes. Maybe maybe you say ten minutes. It might be difficult for the the disciplinary to walk around three times in five minutes.
We would give you fifteen. So it’s difficult So it’s difficult to say how many times in any period that they would have these district house meals. That would be according to the donors. But particularly, Trehor khamtsen. They had more than most district houses because there were many traders in Lhasa who came from Trehor, that area.
So they had many patrons or donors who cared. Trehor. Maybe maybe, roughly speaking, for Trehor khamtsen, maybe ten, fifteen times a month. Oh, that’s quite often, isn’t it? Yeah. Ten to fifteen times maybe in a month.
Maybe maybe at most at most fifteen times, something like that. I’ve forgotten now, Is it — may be eight hundred — a month? Previous to the coming of the Chinese, there might have been four hundred or five hundred. And then after the Chinese came because there was so much trouble, increased to maybe a thousand.
It increased? Mhmm. More monks came. So when they have to because of the the the the troubles that the Chinese were making in his native area, and more monks came to Lhasa, to the monastery. So the numbers increased.
I see. Is that because they could no longer go to Darge? Or because — did Darge move to Shuya? So, yeah, that’s why it was difficult for them to remain there. The the Chinese were making trouble for them.
So were the monks almost immediately go to Lhasa once they became monks rather than go to a local monastery? When was that? During this period? Yeah. Yeah.
During when the when the Chinese were there? Yeah. We talked about before that ordinarily, they would stay in the monastery for six or seven years until they were about sixteen or seventeen. They wouldn’t come to Lhasa before then. No.
I I was just curious about the big jump in the number of monks then. That was all. So was does that mean more lay people actually became monks? The the this increase in monks wasn’t because they they weren’t new monks. They were monks that had been previously staying, for example, at Darge.
And the reason that the only reason they came because of the Chinese repression. So these were old monks who were normally would would have stayed back in in Darge, but because of the Chinese difficulty with the Chinese, they came to Right. To Lhasa. Oh, thank you. Good.
For the the district houses? Yeah. The they would again assemble for debate. And then the the then this would last maybe until five o’clock. And during this period also, they would have recitation of, for example, the Twenty-One Taras. Mhmm.
The Heart of Wisdom Sūtra. Right. The upper classes would they they might have a teaching at any time during the course of the day. It could be in the morning. It could be in the afternoon.
And the students of that particular teacher would ask the permission of the disciplinarian to be excused from debate, for example, and to attend because they had to attend their teaching. Right. And after this, the new students who were studying the three düra texts, the three basic logic texts. Yeah. At this time, then they would go to their their teachers and be taught. And it’s at this time that, you know, that the khamtsen, the district house disciplinarians would, if they found them outside — that they hadn’t gone to their teachers — then it was possible that they might receive a beating for that.
So the three beginning classes would — they might assemble together with one teacher, and they would all recite the various definitions that they were to have learned for that day. And and then one class would recite the definitions that they they were to have learned for that day, and then next class and then next class go through these three classes. They would they they weren’t and they didn’t have very they weren’t very advanced at this point. So some of these new students, they would they had very little discipline. Many quite often they would try to skip out of going to the teaching at this time, and this is when the gedag would look around to see if they had were attending their teaching if they were outside.
So it was mainly the new students that got beaten? The the the the. So the the individual teacher would take a you know, he would look around to make sure all the students were attending. And if one of the you know, just like in school, that’s the responsibility of the teacher to make to make sure that all the students have are attending. And if they didn’t, then the teacher would find them and and Rinpoche doesn’t think maybe it’s a good idea to talk about that — maybe the westerners, they don’t like to hear about students being beaten.
But if he were to he would hunt them out and find out why they didn’t come to teaching and beat them. So it’s individual teachers who who actually beat them. During the debate session, if these if these new students weren’t able didn’t answer well or they didn’t know what they were what they were to have should have known, have various definitions. Then the older students would say, well, you know, who who’s who’s student is who’s who’s the who’s the teacher of this student? This teacher’s obviously not teaching these students well, and that this would be highly embarrassing for the the teacher if the students would act like this.
So the teacher if they when the teacher found out that the students were answering poorly or didn’t know what they should have known, then he’d tell them to get out and don’t come back and things like this because it was terribly embarrassing for the teacher when the students didn’t didn’t do well. So get out of the monastery or just get out of his side? Teacher wouldn’t pass them if they didn’t do well. And and there was like they would say, you know, the the older students would say, you you aren’t you don’t they would tell me to get away, to leave. Yeah.
Unless they unless they could answer well, then then there’s no reason for them to be staying here. And they would embarrass the students, these new students. Oh. So they would tell you that they they don’t belong here. And so then the students would out of this, they would be motivated to study better.
So was sort of older peers putting pressure on this? They were embarrassed and they said, you know, if you can’t study well, if you can’t answer like this, then you should, you know, you’re gonna have to go back home. And then if if they were to go back home having been returned from the monastery, then they would have they would have been very shameful for them. Yeah. So, you know, why did you waste your time?
Why did you go to Yeah. All the way there? And so they were shamed into working well. Alright. It’s very interesting.
To stay, you know, at the monastery and then have to go back because they didn’t study well, then this would these things would be very difficult for them if they went back home. What is that? So the district house gedag disciplinarian. Would have a stick about two and a half feet long. It was wood.
And solid. Two and a half feet, and it was quite solid, about two and a half inch, three inches thick. Shing was pine or some heavy wood, and they beat with it. Tree. Tree.
Tree. Mhmm. The tulku — bring it over. But they did a tulku. Yeah.
This mean, many of the children were quite unruly. Yeah. They were they were they were hard to control. They just like to play all the time. Yeah.
Yeah. Think I think many The or just more in the monastery? The. So they beat them out of compassion and love. So they I mean, this was done out of compassion since if they will continue in the way they were doing, then things would go very badly for them.
So in order to help them to develop more better ways of conduct, then they would they would beat them. It’s necessary to explain this to a westerner because we, and I include myself, are horrified by that because we see beating as violence and intimidation of the the strong against the weak. Mhmm. So this is this is mistaken. So the parents in the west are are powerless.
They’re they’re like their children’s servants. Right. As in Rinpoche, the the children were always looking to the parents to see what what and what they shouldn’t be doing. They that they would see that what they did was pleasing would be pleasing to their parents, and they would do it. If they say it wouldn’t be pleasing, then they wouldn’t do it.
Often, though, with a parent, parent, and I don’t know in a monastery, but beating or physical discipline comes from anger, not from compassion, and that’s not necessarily good motivation. So then the the reason for the beating should be that in order to for the to help the child cease on negative types of negative types of conduct in order to benefit the child, you know, with with this type of motivation to to help them to help the child. So if you can help the child to cease negative types of conduct, then you actually the child will turn out well. The only trouble is beating in itself is a negative type of conduct. It’s a physical violence of one being against another.
This is how Western see. So so out of this and out of this view, then the parents aren’t free to do what is best for their child. They’re they’re they’re not they’re not actually free to help their child. Well, in the understanding ir don’t know. Don’t don’t Yes.
I do. Tell him I think his holiness. I feel his holiness. Dalai Lama and his sister have chosen this other way, this Montessori way, particularly with young children that you you you you lead them in a prepared way, but you don’t use violence against them. So you never beat them?
So maybe that’s because the that is the dilemma is seen that the westerners don’t like to see the children beaten, so he’s imposed that way of running things. I think it comes from a more fundamentally profound understanding of violence from one person to another, that maybe there’s a very small percentage of people that can use violence for compassion, but that maybe about ninety percent of those people. Could Rinpoche truly say that all those teachers would only be doing it for compassion, or would they be doing it because they’d be ashamed by their their students? That’s not compassion. That’s that’s self motivation.
So we we can’t say. I mean, even in the monastic in that monastery situation, were some who beat out of anger, some who beat out of compassion. So in in the in the west, they give they give the the children all the freedom that they want, and the and the and the so the the children don’t respect in general, the children don’t respect their parents and and and their wants. And there’s a seems to be in the west a great emphasis on individualism and and doing what you want. And this individualism is what it causes so many divorces these days that everybody’s they two people and a man and one, they come together, but they’re in there very much for themselves.
And if they don’t get what they want, then they they split up. They get divorced. And this is one of the difficulties in relationships that he sees in the West that because their children have been brought up to have all the freedom and all the they don’t they’re not they’re not to be subservient or respectful to another person to forego their wants. That they’re brought up with thinking that they should do exactly what they want and get what they want. So they grew up with a sense individualism, which makes it difficult to have harmonious relationships.
To Rinpoche, I think he’s completely right, but there’s another point that I have to really make on this this violent discipline, which I think is quite different to that, and I’d like to try and express it a little bit more. I won. Sorry? Rinpoche says that — Rinpoche says I won. He he won, but I want to go back to the original argument, which wasn’t what Why I think his holiness and his holiness’ sisters have adopted this philosophy nonphysical violence is because when you impose a solution on a weaker and a smaller person using physical violence So it’s I mean, the ideally, the the teacher is supposed is doing this in order to because the the children are wild, and he’s trying to help them develop better conduct and help them in education.
Just playing. To Rinpoche, when Tenzin tells me some of the beatings that he had, in a Western way, it’s disgusting, it’s awful, he doesn’t say it that way, but to Westerners, all those welts from this lama’s stick is horrifying. So they would in general, mean, mainly they were only beaten in connection with their education and trying to help them in that way, but not other ways. Not for other Sometimes they were beaten very badly. When one reads about them, it’s but everywhere it happened in the past.
Sometimes if they got angry, then they didn’t didn’t care where they beat the child. I agree with Rupeshet. Tell him, did I win one then? — Memorized quite a lot of texts. Generally, they have to memorize four or five hundred pages.
This was one of the main reasons that they would that the students would be beaten if they weren’t actually memorizing what they were to be memorized. I don’t see them with that. Not just for not for any old reason. They wouldn’t be beaten for any just old reason. But it’s difficult to say how to benefit the child.
I can see especially in a monastery with all forty unruly boys it might be absolutely necessary but from my point of view I couldn’t do it and when Nicky was through her troubles last year, even though she made me very angry, it would have been one hundred percent wrong to use violence because she had to sort through all of the mental obscurations and now she’s come through so clear. I’m just amazed she’s clearer than I am. So in general, probably when Westerners beat their child, it’s a mistake. But also when they don’t discipline their child, it’s a mistake. They let the child walk all over.
That’s also stupid. So in general, it’s probably not good to beat a child if if the occasion were if there were a context that it was done in the for the sake of their studies, then maybe this is what the Dalai Lama has in mind. In this philosophy of the Montessori, it’s a sort of a middle way you don’t harm the environment, you don’t harm anyone else. The person’s going to do either of those things you stop. He doesn’t want me to do it.
You just tell him that. That’s the middle way his holiness and his holiness’ sister use in the Tibetan children’s village at the Montessori. No harm to environment Anything in the environment, no harm to another person. If a child is going to do either of those things, you stop them.
But otherwise they are free to explore, but that’s for younger children, free to learn. So, yeah, so in general, the motivation was to beat the child, it was to help them develop their better qualities and to make sure that it didn’t continue with their poor bad quality. Yeah. I put I make sure this goes in clearly now. Yeah.
Hi there, how are you? Did someone call me? Did you just call me? No, said Tenzin. Oh no, you said Jen.
Okay.