Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. In this 69-minute biographical interview, Khensur Rinpoche recounts how Dargye Gompa monastery in eastern Tibet was destroyed in the early 1930s — not by a large political campaign but because one aggrieved local official personally guided Kuomintang soldiers to its gates over a land-and-water dispute. Rinpoche then describes Losar customs from his childhood: gutuk (a nine-ingredient new-year soup), chemar flour offerings shared before dawn, khabsey fried dough, and communal chang. The material life of his home region follows — barley, wheat, and droma harvested once a year, deer antlers and a prized medicinal grass root traded to Chinese buyers. The session also captures his first impressions of Australia in 1988 and a frank exchange about petitioning Western governments for Tibet.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 27 RS 1988 03 31.mp3
UUID: b41e19eb-42ca-4425-9b33-1716034ea3f9
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Rinpoche's Story (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1988-03-31
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 68.6 minutes
Words: ~5,200
People. Yeah. Yeah. Was that in Tuśita in Delhi? Yes.
Tuśita. Western monks. Western monks? Yeah. So some Westerners became monks in Sera?
Yeah. He teach. Many in the Sera Je monastery. They have many western monks. He teach some contact, is it?
Make contact. Yes. Come in contact. Yeah. Yeah.
He teach Dharma. Yeah. Philosophy. So when did the western monks start? Remember this monk.
Americans. One, his name Thubten Lhundrup. Thubten? Thubten Lhundrup. Thubten Lhundrup.
No. He’s not. He’s not Muck anymore. Yeah. And one Switzerland, Western Geshe.
Oh. You you here? Geshe? Yeah. He’s got a is Geshe?
Yeah. What’s his name? His name is Sangye Sangpo. Sangye Sangpo. Sangye Sangpo.
Yeah. Then Italian, you know, logo. Oh, we talked yesterday. Yeah. Then one Greece.
Greek? Yeah. His name Michael. Yeah. Then one New Zealand.
Zealand. His name, Jampa Chöphel. Jampa? Chöphel. Chöphel.
Yeah. Then one French. French. Yeah. His name, it’s about about eight eight westerners there or more.
Yeah. Eight. Yeah. Eight. Yeah.
Other there are two Italian, but or one Australian. His name is Jampa Ngawang. He’s in Melbourne. He’s back in Melbourne? Yeah.
He from Melbourne? He from Melbourne. He’s still in Sera. He’s he’s still in Melbourne now. Oh, he’s in Melbourne.
You have have you seen him? You haven’t been to have you been to Melbourne? We did. So but that’s just a few months. So if Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa said Rinpoche would be good to go to the west, he must have had more western students in Tuśita, didn’t he?
Yeah. And then on the Tuśita side, they requested you came in to Tuśita. Oh, so they requested him to go to Tuśita? Yeah. Oh.
Oh. Tuśita today? Is Tuśita their center? Yeah. It’s Tuśita center.
New thing. Its director? The director. Tuśita director, his name. Doctor Nick?
Doctor Nick. His name, Doctor Nick. Doctor Nick. Yeah. He’s he’s from Australia.
He’s got what’s his other name? Doctor Nick who? He has another answer. Nick Nick. What do you mean?
Oh. Know, You know Ishikando? What’s her other name? Hillary. I think I do, but I can’t remember her Australian She’s husband before.
L. Jones. Ishikando, his name nun. He’s she’s nun. Yeah.
When before they’re all two laypeople Yeah. Then Arthur one Yeah. Does Tuśita. Tuśita. And one lady, she’s working there in Tuśita when Rinpoche was in Tuśita.
Mhmm. Is she Australian or maybe not? Was Australian. Yeah. What’s she’s Don’t think on her.
Yeah. So what does Rinpoche think of his so Australia’s the first time he’s come to the West. Australia, he’s never been anywhere else. So what does he think of the West and the mad people? Or you say, what about you want?
Uh-huh. You know? You said, how is in or the west like? Mhmm. You just said, What what kind?
In food and Ah. In well, I’m really interested in every way, but is the West like is it what he expected? Expected. What he Mhmm. Seen here.
Very clean. Clean. Yeah. Yeah. And Hello.
Where are we talking? So it’s very clean. It’s materials It’s very nice. Material is Nice material. Clean, good, new.
Material is very progress. Is it? Oh, materially, it’s very progress. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And good meat. Good meat. Which meat does he like the best?
The the beef or the mutton? The sheep or the Beef and sheep. Which does he like? Beef and sheep. He likes both.
Those two. Yeah. No pork. No pork. Yeah.
Chicken. And just love chicken. Just not a little bit. Doesn’t eat chicken at home, does it? No.
Cold, then we make hot. Yeah. And oh, hot, still like to go to England one day to learn to that place? The English is then. They request before fast.
You come in England. And then you come in one western center. Mhmm. And he he said, if I want to go, then I want to go big center, not like small. Then they said, you go in England.
Yeah. You come in England. It’s the big center. Yeah. So now it’s a very small center.
Yes. It is. It’s very small. Fairly small. Well, there’s lots more questions, but I don’t know about now.
I I won’t tell I’ll work on all these tapes and I’ll send them back. And Jampa and you, maybe Bruce can check the questions. Mhmm. But I won’t be back in Adelaide till end of the year, so I won’t be able to talk unless you come over to Canberra or something like that. Are you coming any more trips?
I don’t know. Next next holiday. When’s holiday? Next. Next.
I mean June June, July. June, July, maybe. That’d be good. You where are you going? Any place?
Maybe Geneva and something like that. You like Geneva? You’re giving teachings there or what? Pardon? Just for holiday?
No. No. Just if we want go, then we we meet their own teacher. Yeah. So Yeah.
I’ll tell Rinpoche that I’ll I’ll be working on this. Yeah. I know it’s not finished, but I won’t be coming back here till December. So if we could meet somewhere else, otherwise, I’ll send everything back. Yeah.
It’s a good idea. If you you you have some doubt, then you send to Yeah. Each other. Yeah. Yeah.
There’s lots, lots of doubts Lots of and for you too because because one sometime if I get a copy, would you be able to write in English? All the names? Yeah. Would you be able to? Yeah.
Good. And the other thing, just wanted to talk to Rinpoche about Tibet, what’s happening now. Yeah. I’m in Canberra. Yeah.
I don’t know if he’s got any ideas what where everything’s going and what what what could be the best, you know, things to do. What are you walking in Canberra? Well, I it’s just that the parliament the parliament house for all Australia is in Canberra. There’s a few parliamentarians who are very good, very helpful. One Labour man, Leslie Ketchok and I, a Swiss couple, we stayed in his office for one week and we got all those signatures.
Oh, yeah. And there’s another woman in the Senate and she made that speech. But I wondered well, it’s hard to know what to do next, but there’s a lot of so much is happening now. Yeah. And Rinpoche said If there was Rinpoche said, you should all just make effort and petition the Tibetan government.
Then they would send a letter. That’s true. Isn’t it? And say in monastery in the South India. Yeah.
They in in Tibet, there are many problem and many killing, and you should just pray about here, over there. Mhmm. Yeah. This this may not happen, but if at some time the Australian foreign minister or anything wants to talk with some Tibetan people, would Rinpoche come over if I could meet you and look after you in Canberra if that ever was to happen? Because they like to speak to Tibetans, not just It’s it’s no problem if we have passport in Nepal, but citizen, then we can’t do.
Can’t really do much. Yeah. We’ve been in the university radio station. Yep. And we said, we talk on the radio station.
Yeah. On the radio. Yeah. Yeah. If like this, it’s not a problem.
See, that’s good, but it doesn’t reach the ears Yeah. That make the ears are in Canberra, not here. Well, we’ll just have to see what happens. Yeah. Is Rinpoched any word from His Holiness or anything?
Any word from Dharmasala? Has he heard from His Holiness? Some His Holiness, he visit he he been to in South India. There are many talks, I mean, among the people. Some sent letter for them to me.
Leslie Ketchok said they’re having a big meeting soon in Sala with the government. It’s before some Western report came came to in Dharmasala, there, you know. I think it is five point. Peace plan? Peace plan, yeah.
You hear? Oh yeah. It’s before, yeah, it’s last year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it still has to be negotiations, doesn’t it, with the Chinese and the Dalai Lama’s government?
Negotiations is the only thing. Negotiation. Talks. Yeah. Yeah.
Then but it has to be in a western country, must be. Yeah. Somewhere in the west, they can talk and meet. Mhmm. Well, we’ll just see what happens.
If something comes up in Canberra, I’ll let you know. Okay. Well, thank you. When you when? Tomorrow?
Tomorrow. What time? Six AM. She said to wash away. It’s a very long way.
When you arrive? Sunday. Not till Sunday. Oh. So sixteen hours to drive.
And I’ll have to stop at night and get too tired. Yeah. It’s true. Yeah. That’s what yeah.
That’s yeah. That’s why it’s too far too far to drive back. That’s why I don’t come back till Christmas. A very small, perhaps one inch long. So yeah.
That that’s right. Droma is a correct rendition. It’s very sweet. Droma markhu. So they take they cook the droma, and then they put they mix in butter and brown sugar.
And this is droma markhu. The word so droma and then markhu. Mar means butter. Khu. Khu, maybe.
So the khu comes from the word khu, which means like soup. So so that because there’s a lot of liquid in the the butter. There’s a lot of but liquid butter in this dish. So it’s kind of like soup butter. Droma.
So Droma. Markhu. I think maybe you spell it m a r k h u. M a r k h u. They are a fixed rendition, but it’s only it’s not not so very harshly.
Yeah. There is not. Markhu, k h u, I think. M a r k h u. So there’s there’s no special name for the the wooden box, which is placed upon the altar which holds the the flour during the festival of Losar.
But it in general, it could be called s a. The shape shea shea refers to the barley flour. The ma refers to the butter in which the the barley flour is mixed with butter, rubbed with butter. And means to to put, and means to place put the place. So then so it this container has no special name, but it could be given this name, the place where the is put.
Something like that. So there were there were night preparations leading up to Losar. They had to they they would completely clean the house. They very thoroughly sweep it all up. And they they would prepare a special tukbah made of nine ingredients.
So this is called gutuk. Gu means nine and tuk. It means thukpa. Tuk itself means noodles. So it’s like it would be like a soup made up of nine different ingredients such as meat, cheese, various types of grains.
And this would they would have to prepare this begin preparing this before Losar, before the new year. And then they would make prepare elaborate offerings on the altar. They would present new khatas to all the various pictures, paintings, prepare new seats. Then actual first day of the new year, they would get up very early, perhaps three o’clock in the morning, and then they would they would prepare hot water and everybody would wash. And then they would make various offerings.
They would put on new clothing, especially for that day. And then they would have they would drink tea with lots of butter. Then they would take the chemar. Chemar was the the the tsampa, which was placed in the box on the altar, take a pinch of it, and say various auspicious prayers. We talked about these before.
We we discussed that before previously. The meaning of that, very auspicious prayers. They’d make offerings to the Three Jewels, throw a pinch of this flour up in the air, and then each of them would would, taste a little bit of it. Then they’d have, they would eat they would have khabsey, the the the doughy like fried food.
It was especially eaten at at Losar. And then it would it would have tea and this droma markhu that we just talked about. Then they would especially, whoever they met, there was a special greeting that they would say Tashi Delek kamsang, k a m s a n g. Kamsang means something like constituents, so it just refers to the body roughly in general. Sami means well.
Excellent. So when they said this, they would have meant, are you well? Or they would say, tsampa Sonang. And definitely, it means something like the doctor teaching. Everyone would go to to have an audience with their each of their individual lamas, spiritual teachers, and then they would go to the temple and come back And then on the in in calm during Losar, they would they would drink chang, c h a n g.
And then they Then on the second day, they would they they would go up on a mountain, a near mountain, and there, they would have a special incense offering ceremony. And cut back down again to eat lots of delicious food, put on their wear their finest clothing, and they would go out and visit one another just as previously as previously just to have a good time in general. So this is just the description of it of what you what would be done on in general on those side. It’s the lucky. So, yeah, general celebration lasted three days.
The the lama would just be simply someone anyone who had taught you to anyone who had taught you the dharma anyone who had taught you the dharma. So this therefore, you could have many lamas that you would visit that day. So according to chronology, the Rinpoche arrived in in nineteen thirty two. Approximately one and a half years later, the Nationalist Chinese arrived. So the Chinese invaders, Kuomintang, there was no special Tibetan name, just known as Kuomintang.
So the previous to the Chinese invasion, the relationship between the Bonpo monastery and Dargye Gompa monastery were very bad. They were very poor relationships. And due to this, one one of the one it wasn’t it said the relationship between one Bonpo man wasn’t a monastery. Wasn’t a Bonpo monastery. Just one man.
His name was Arupa. Arupa. Arupa. He he had a very poor relationship with Dargye Gompa, but he went to China and asked the Chinese to come and invade. And he he guided them to Dargye Gompa where the when the at at that time, the Chinese destroyed Dargye Gompa. The reason that the that this Arupa had developed such animosity to Dargye Gompa was because of one of the the main workers, one of the main monks who did most of the work at Dargye Gompa.
His name was Aku Tegya. Aku Tegya. And he didn’t had had a very poor relationship. Got they they were fighting all the time. So as a consequence, the Arupa went to to China and to ask the authorities and led them to come and led them to Dargye Gompa where upon they destroyed it.
There’s a there’s a very small dispute over over some water for irrigating the field. There wasn’t there didn’t there wasn’t any great dispute. It’s just a small matter. So there there was some difficulty with with water, not between Darge Gompa, but with the some of the workers who were working for this man, Aruco. He and they they got very upset.
They were working for him. They got very upset with him. So they they they he began to treat them very harshly, and they revolted and they struck. And they asked they went to the to. The main most important person there was they went to, and they asked him to for his help.
I asked for his help because this they’re between they’re being treated very poorly. So he said he would help when he when went to to speak with the authorities. He was treated very badly, and this is when because he was protecting coming to the to the aid of these these these workers, he went went over to China to China and guided back the Chinese army in order to destroy it, to gain control again. Did so there there was no. Thursday, the first of June nineteen eighty nine with Khensur Rinpoche.
On on the greeting card, some of the items were being spoken about last week concerning the Losar. This card. Let go. Get one out of it. No.
I said it’s it’s not an actual head of a of a sheep. Sheep. Sheep. Sheep. It’s a they make a mound of flour, and then they they sculpt butter over there.
So it’s made with the butter sculpture. This this card was sent from me. This is recent New Year from Sera Jeay as a a New Year’s greeting. So the word pak is flour which has been mixed with tea, butter, and sometimes they put cheese in, and it’s spelled p a g. So reference to this page one, bottom paragraph.
There were three there were three rows of monks, and his uncle sat in the first row, and Rinpoche sat behind in the second row. The top of page two, they were not stuffed with horsehair. It was either yak’s hair or or wool. So they were stuck with either yak yak’s hair or wool. The wool was in layers, and the and the layers would be sewn together and covered with cloth.
So the the the layers of wool it wasn’t the skins itself, but there it seems as if the wool was in was in layers. And then this would be sewn together, and then it would be completely covered in cloth, and the cloth would be sewn on. So there was no wool showing. There’s just cloth wool covered with cloth or other types where stuff with. So the the spelling of what’s under the fifth paragraph on page two?
The spelling of is k h u, ku, p u, nong, n o m g n o n g. Goo Goo Nong. The the village head is called Wangdul, w a n g d u l, Wangdul. The district head is called is called proton, p o t r o n. The the the representative of the Tibetan government in Chengdu is called Seftrum.
And this thing that’s spelled d d zed a d zed e d zed e e. D r u n. D r u n. D zed a e r u n. Zedrum.
Zedrum. Zedrum. The monastic representative. At Chamdo. The is the monastic representative.
He’s a monk. So this is the monastic representative in the Tibetan government at Dargye Gompa at Dargye Gompa, not from Chamdo. Yeah. The government representative in Chamdo is called Sawang Sawang, And it is spelled s a w a n g. Maybe that’s what I would say.
Sawang. S a w a n g. It it Sawang is the is the is the name of the position. It’s the name of the position. The the person who holds that position is called Surkhang.
And that is spelled s u r k h a n g. S u r k h a n g. So the government representative in Chamdo, that position is called Sawang, and the person who holds that position is called Surkhang. The the Chinese when they they came and the the monks surrendered to the Chinese, they they allowed them to leave. Some few remained in calm.
Most of them went to Chengdu, and then the Chinese went into each of the rooms and and blew up the monastery. But none none of the monks were killed. So I know all the possessions of the possessions of the monks were taken by the the faction that was had as we talked about previously, was a faction which was against the the monks in the monastery who who asked the asked the the Chinese to come in. The all their possessions were taken by these were taken by these people in this faction. The individual possessions of the monks were they were allowed to be taken to the homes of the monks, but the the general property of the monastery was taken.
So it was this the person who actually who led the the Chinese to come was a Bonpo, and and he had many simple people were in sympathy with him, and so they helped him in what he was doing. And I mean, the what would you say? Well, the the leader, this person who led the who invited and let the Chinese to come and destroy Dargye Gompa When he got to where he wanted, he just returned to his own area, and he died a few years later. So is the the religion in in this the religion which was existed in Tibet before Buddhism came to Tibet. Bon religion.
With respect to the man who who led the Chinese, he he wasn’t a. He wasn’t he wasn’t a. He was a Buddhist. Means that he was a means, like, official. Or, I mean, it just means an official, a leader.
I I do remember that. Yeah. Like, Dalai Lama is the is the leader. The official. Bimple.
So he was just as as was explained before, it was a it was more of a land dispute that caused them to ask the Chinese to come in. And so it wasn’t had to have anything to do with the Bon religion. This this small photograph, which is about one and a half by one and a half inches, is a photograph taken when the Dalai Lama gave the oral transmission of the teachings of Buddha in Dharmasala. You have some he gave you previously some photographs of that event. This is just an additional photograph if you want to make use of it.
There’s a color a color negative, which is just taken while Rinpoche was the abbot of the Sera Je Monastery. Tuesday, the eighth of June nineteen eighty nine, the Khensur Rinpoche Buddha House. So in regard to what the what was taken from the monastery, from Dargye Gompa monastery, it wasn’t the the Chinese took very little. It was the the the the in regard to the things that were taken from when the when the Chinese army came. It wasn’t that the the Chinese army took very little.
It was the the high official who had actually led the invited the Chinese army to come brought its followers, and they took many articles. They took articles, both general articles from the monastery and articles and things from the from the individual monks. For example, they took, you know, things like food, clothing, money, you know, kitchen equipment, office equipment, all the various cushions, and things like that. And then they burnt the at that that evening, they burnt the assembly hall. So page five, the fourth paragraph.
They would begin the plowing in approximately the fifth month of the western. So January, that would be May. They would begin plowing. They would use a zoo two zoos to pull the plow. So they would wait till the the rains came and that softened the earth, but they had to wait till that happened before they started plowing.
And then they would they would harvest in September. They they would plant the seed immediately upon having plowed plowed. They would plant seeds. They only had one crop a year. Barley, wheat, Droma.
These were the three main crops. So so it’s some kind of black. So there was black and white varieties. It was I think it’s something like a a pulse that would they would make something like dal. They would say a pulse.
Something like dal. Dal? Dal. Indian dal. It’s just a it’s a.
Would would take the drema. It came in two varieties, black and white. It’s not like dal. And they would grind it into flour and make they would roast it, grind it the flour, and make eat it the same way they eat tsampa. And they would make what they call pa, or they also set it to the livestock.
The the So on page six, third paragraph, it was a state. The state was called Gyalolog. Gyalolog, g y a l o l o g. G y a l o l o g. G.
G y a g. And in Gyalog, g y a, Lo, l o, Lo, l o g. And it was not part of the the it was not the part of the main government. It was, like, there were eighteen states in China at that time. This was one of those states, and it was it was the army from that state.
And I wish I was not familiar with what Nachi was. The The the the high official the Tibetan high official who who led the Chinese, who asked the Chinese to come in, his name was His name was. Page seven at the top. It’s spelled r I w o c h e. Rivoche.
Riwoche. Page seven, top paragraph. The relationship three places of Riwoche, Chamdo, and Rinda. So Rinda is where in which he was born. It takes about about one month to get to Chamdo, which is heading west.
And then from Chamdo to Riwoche, which is, again, heading west, takes two more days. Page seven, paragraph two. Shawa, the word Shawa, so means deer. And Shawat sharah sharah means deer horns, the antlers, antlers of a deer. And they would they would make medicine from these from the deer antlers.
Then there was another type of animal which is related to the deer. It’s called lawa. And if they would remove the dust, the musk from this this animal. And this musk, this gland was called a lauat lauatse. Lauatse.
So that gland was lauatse, they extracted the musk. So it’s so the words these words are means deer. Means deer antlers. And is the type of animal in which they get musk, and the actual gland they take it from is called. The spelling for for deer is Shawa, s h a w a.
And the word for the antlers are horns with ra, r a. So then it’s so the deer antlers would be called Shara, s h a r a. And then the the type of animal that the that the musk was taken from was called the lawa, l a l b a. And the gland would be called LATSE, l a t s e. So the antlers were very big.
They used to use them for medicine, the Chinese used to prize these antlers for medicine, and they were they weren’t hard. They were they were soft. If they were hard, they wouldn’t buy them. And they were if you cut if you cut them, their their blood would come out. Third third paragraph on page seven.
The the spelling of bu is b u. B u. Bu. And What’s the they meant? Mhmm.
So they would this particular medicine, bu, was used for strengthening the blood, and it was not they didn’t make the medicine actually in his area. They they sold it to the Chinese, and the Chinese would ship it out, and they would make the medicine in in China. Medicine? It was made from a a plant similar to the just like grass. It was red in color.
It would be actually, it’d be so it yeah. So it the actual plant, the blue itself, which they made the medicine from, would be red and colored. It didn’t have any particular flower. So So just so this medicine is called this we’re talking about one medicine, one herb in both in both the case of and. And it’s called yar, y a r, t h s a, g u, p u, p p u.
Okay. Now that’s an abbreviation for which means summer, which means grass. KA, k a, means summer. Summer. KA means grass.
Gunka, g u k a, in the summer. In the summer, grass in the summer. In the summer, it was like a grass. In the winter, it got it got shriveled up and looked like some kind of insect. This so that’s where they they gave it that name.
And this is what they that they just sold this herb. They didn’t make the medicine itself. They just sold this to the Chinese. So it was called. That’s hard to imagine too.
Yes. That’s what these two words mean. So it’s all one. Yeah. Okay.
What about the next. Remember, she said that they didn’t use actual grass itself. They used the root. They would they would use the use the root, and the their food. So I think this paragraph is talking about one type of food one type of medicine. This this The word for root is not.
The root root root in. So and the but the Tibetans didn’t use it. So I think this is I don’t know what to Well, probably, Yatza isn’t. Drato is maybe in the. So there was there was another type of herb which grew alongside the which is called zayun zayun z a y u n.
And they would be they also the Tibet didn’t make the use of this either, but the Chinese also made use of this as a herb. Zayun z a y u. So the the third from the bottom paragraph on page seven, there’s no there’s no reason to put any knee. Just any. It means none.
The word knee doesn’t mean anything. And then look beneath that any chick. The word chick means one, so there’s no need to put that. So if you just use the word any. Page eight.
Paragraph. Four. So I’m just adding this information if it if it helps to clarify. This period of time when Rinpoche studied with Gotam Rinpoche was as far as the time of the year, it was from approximately November to March. And then he was he he thinks he was about eleven years old at this time.
So the bottom paragraph on page eight, the the spelling of Sugchinyima. So the the spelling of Sugchinyima is s u g hyphen c h I, Sugchinyima, n y I hyphen m a. Sugchi. Is it did you say t h I c h I? C h I.
C I think it’s said that. Is it’s about the the life of the king, but it’s it’s there’s a part in which Sugchinyima actually refers to a very beautiful deer, which was thought to be a divine deer, which was which which was heard about and was they sought to find it and bring it to the king.