Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. The striking claim at the heart of this nearly two-hour session by Khensur Rinpoche is that even a perfect union of calm abiding and special insight, without renunciation or bodhicitta, becomes a cause for rebirth in the upper realms of cyclic existence — not liberation. He maps the three realms and their causes in detail, pausing for a vivid portrait of form-realm gods who enjoy bliss for aeons yet suffer terribly as death approaches: flower garlands wilt, the body begins to smell, and companions toss offerings from a distance rather than come near. A flywheel-and-belt image captures karma’s grip on uncontrolled rebirth. Rinpoche then shows why all three principal aspects of the path — renunciation, bodhicitta, and the correct view of emptiness — must work together. An extended Q&A covers karma purification, time in the god realms, and why renunciation is the “tap” that blocks desire-realm afflictions from arising.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 14 Eye of A 1989 02 28.mp3
UUID: 0139a29c-ae54-4d0d-bca1-8788a2269f3b
Teacher: Khensur Rinpoche
Collection: Opening the Eye of Awareness 1988-1989 (Khensur Rinpoche)
Date: 1989-02-28
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 117.4 minutes
Words: ~5,838
So if we can generate the motivation of altruism, that is the thought to benefit others, to bring happiness and bliss to others, that developing this intention to benefit others, then with such a motivation, it’s thinking that it’s necessary to develop ourselves and our thinking, and therefore, if necessary, in dependence upon that to listen to the teachings, developing such a motivation with such an intention that I’m going to listen to this for the benefit of others with this altruistic attitude intention, then listening itself is very beneficial. So we’re discussing the method of accomplishing, developing, calm abiding, and with respect to that, last week we discussed the nine mental abiding along with the six powers, making use of the four manners four mental engagements as manners of applying the six powers. So when we talk about the term calm abiding samadhi, the calming is the pacification of distractions to external objects, and the abiding is the single-minded placement or resting of the mind upon any object that we desire, and this represents an extreme serviceability of the mind, pliancy and flexibility, and such a type of mind is of tremendous benefit. So if we take an example in our meditation of when we cultivate the understanding of emptiness, that we take emptiness as our object of observation and the factor which enables us to single-mindedly abide on emptiness without distraction is the factor of calm abiding.
So in this development of calm abiding, we develop extreme serviceability of both physical and mental, and this is manifested such that we can abide on any object for as long as we wish, that we have no difficulty of either body or mind. We can remain in single-minded placement upon an object for days on end. So, calm abiding is the placement upon the mind, a placement of the mind upon an object of observation without analysis. It simply is that we are able to abide upon any object of our choice. Now having attained that, additionally, we seek to develop special insight, lhaktong or Vipassana.
This is with respect to the nature of reality. We’re examining whether or not an object truly exists or not. So this is the special insight, is a method for analysis of the nature of reality and we combine this, we hold our object with our calm abiding and then making use of special insight, examine the nature of the object. When we say special insight, we’re talking about the factor of wisdom, the factor which analyzes the nature of reality. And the ultimate aim within these factors of insight, a special insight in calm abiding is that by making use of calm abiding, taking as our object emptiness, we are able to cultivate a deeper special insight.
And through our analysis, this enables us by the power of analysis and familiarity with the object, that is to say emptiness, this facilitates, helps us develop calm abiding. So we’re seeking to make use of both of these factors of calm abiding and special insight in such a way that they mutually assist one another, that they help raise the level of each of themselves, mutually assisting one of themselves, each other until we actually attain a union of calm abiding and special insight. So in order to eventually attain this union of calm abiding and special insight, it’s necessary to attain special insight. In order to attain special insight, this must be preceded by the attainment of calm abiding. So initially we have to practice, make effort in attaining calm abiding.
So, in the attainment of the union of calm abiding and special insight, It’s necessary to cultivate the factors of the actual calm abiding and actual insight and the preparations for these two. The preparations for these two is the training and their cultivation. In the case of the three principal aspects of the path, when we combine the correct view, that is the understanding of emptiness, If it’s coupled with renunciation, the determination to be free, then such a coupling acts as the cause for the attainment of liberation. If on the other hand accompanied or coupled or co joined with additionally the awakening heart bodhicitta, then it becomes a cause for complete Buddhahood. If our understanding of emptiness, the correct view, is not conjoined with the awakening heart, then it does not act as a method for the achievement of complete Buddhahood.
Then additionally, if our correct view is not coupled, conjoined with renunciation, then it does not even act as a cause for liberation from cyclic existence. It simply acts it’s of no great benefit to us. Yes. If we were to meditate on the union of calm abiding and special insight and our meditation was not if such a thought was not conjoined with either renunciation or the awakened heart, then not only would this union of calm abiding and special insight not serve as a cause for either liberation or complete Buddhahood, but it would simply serve as a cause for the continuation of cyclic existence. And moreover it would serve as a cause for attaining the realm of a god of form or a formless god.
Within cyclic existence there are three realms or abodes, and these are the desire realm, the form realm, and the formless realm. Within the desire realm, there are the abodes of within the bad migrations of hell, hungry ghosts and animal and then within the happier migrations, there are the humans and the desire gods. So these are the actual birthplaces within the desire realm. So, the second realm, the realm of form, there are four main levels within the realm of form. These are the first concentration, the second concentration, the third and the fourth concentrations.
And within the formless realm there are again four levels, and the first is limitless space, the second is limitless consciousness, the third is nothingness, and the fourth is the peak of cyclic existence. Peak of cyclic existence, these are the four levels within the formless realm. So, this is by continually cycling through these three realms, derive the name cyclic existence. We take birth in the desire realm and then we die to that realm. We take rebirth in the form realm, we die from that realm, we take rebirth in the form less realm, and we die from that realm, and then we go back down to the desire realm, continually taking rebirth and dying in each of these realms, continually circling again and again cycling through these three realms, and therefore this is within this all these beings are cyclic, are beings who are bounded by cyclic existence.
Anywhere within this cyclic existence, where we might go has a nature of dissatisfactory quality about it. That the three of both are dissatisfactory, wherever we abide is dissatisfactory, whoever we are accompanying with, there’s a quality of dissatisfactoriness about it, and whatever resources we may gather together, there is a quality of dissatisfactory about them. So, we should try to understand what are the causes for each of these three realms. Now, we take the first of these three realms, the desire realm, and within the desire realm, the level of bad migration, so that is to say, the levels of hell being hungry ghost and animal. Their causes are destructive actions or destructive karma.
Then within the still within the desire realm, there’s the upper realm, the happy migrations, and within those there’s the rebirth, the level of humans and gods of desire or the desire gods, and the causes for taking rebirth in these levels are constructive actions or positive potentials. So then with respect to the second realm, the form realm, the causes for taking rebirth in either of the four concentrations is the, as we mentioned before, the union of calm abiding with special insight, but such that this union is not conjoined with either renunciation or the awakening heart. This acts as a cause for either the preparations or the actual concentrations of the form realm. And likewise, for the third realm or the formless realm, This is the cause for taking rebirth in such realms, again, the union of calm abiding with special insight which is not conjoined with either renunciation or the awakening heart. And through this as a cause, we attain either the preparations or the actual levels of limitless space, consciousness, nothingness, or the peak of cyclic existence.
So by through habituation, by association with the causes of each of these three realms by either we are continually creating the causes for the preparations and actual levels of the desired realm, form or formless realms, and continually circling through these three realms. So the preparations and the actual concentrations, the preparations and actual concentrations and absorptions of the form and formless realms are in themselves constructive actions, constructive karma. But they are attained through being motivated by afflictive emotions. With the birth as a a god within the the upper realms, the upper two realms, with is such a type of rebirth there is feelings of suffering. But there are no feelings of suffering.
But there are sufferings of, for example, of birth and old age. So though though in the upper realm in the upper two realms, there is no feeling of suffering and still it has the quality of dissatisfactoriness because we still experience, you know, there’s no feeling of suffering, but there is the suffering of birth, old age, and death, and we are still under the control of karma. We have no freedom from karma. And moreover, in such realms we’re not able to create new constructive actions, new positive types of karma. So upon death from such a state, we can only only our good karma will our positive karma will be exhausted, and we will take rebirth in a lower realm.
So in such an abode, in such a place as the two upper realms, place that we live, such places as abodes are very happy places, that your companions are very agreeable types of beings, the goddesses and gods. They’re quite nice to get along with. And there’s no feelings of difficulty or dissatisfaction. It’s just like spending your entire day playing in the park. Because of this, then there’s no interest in there’s no enthusiasm for listening to the dharma.
Because they’re continually enjoying themselves, continually playing this, they have no interest or they take no delight in listening to the dharma. So the gods in the upper realms experience no unhappiness until the signs of death begin to appear, their impending death. And some of the signs of their impending death are that they lose their radiant bodily complexion. They have flower garlands and these begin to wilt. Their body begins to smell bad and their clothing smells bad.
And because of all these signs, all their good friends, their companions no longer want to come near them because they smell so bad. And all the people that used to be so close to them, they won’t even come near them. Even if their best friends, if they were to offer them a flower, they only do so by standing back very far away from them and kind of tossing it at them. So these are the signs of death approaching. So because of all these they become aware of the impending the eminence of their own death and all because of all their former companions won’t even come near them any longer, they begin to experience a great deal of suffering.
These feelings of they begin to worry. Because one of the greatest sufferings that occurs is that these gods have the ability of seeing in the three times, that they’re able to, through the force of clairvoyance, able to know where they have taken rebirth in the past, They know they are able to know the present and where they’re going to take rebirth in the future. And because they’re able to see where they’re going to take rebirth in the future, for example, they are going to fall from this divine realm, they’re going to possibly take rebirth into hell. And being able to see all the future sufferings creates a great deal of fear and creates a deal of unimaginable this agony and torture for them, knowing where they’re going to take rebirth. So they are able to the signs of impending death begin to appear seven days before the actual death, and these so they go through this intense suffering for what seven days, but for them it’s an unimaginably long period of time.
So the comparison of time is much different in the divine realms, in the god realms. For example, one human year in Tuśita. Tuśita in this case is one of the levels of the concentrations in the form realm. Such that one human year equals one morning, one day, one day in their realm. And this also increases as you grow up in the higher concentrations, the number of years for one day in concentrations.
So I mean one day in some of the higher concentrations would be millions of years within the human realm. So at the times of the signs of the impending death, they experience a great deal of suffering and fear, saying that perhaps they’re going to be reborn in hell. And because they’ve spent their entire life never having practiced, never listening to the Dharma, for example, at this such time then they’re without the spiritual teacher, they’re without even any friends. Then within the formless realm there are the gods who take rebirth there, and these gods have no form. They have no body.
The formless gods only have four aggregates. Usually we talk about five aggregates. Do not have the body the aggregate form. They have discriminations, feeling, the compositional factors, and the aggregate of consciousness. Just four aggregates.
And initially upon taking rebirth in the formless realm, they are aware that they have taken rebirth in such a realm, but then it’s as if they go into a deep sleep. They lose all their awareness and they only come out of this state of sleep upon the impending of death. And then it’s as if they wake up from their deep sleep. So many think that such an attainment as being reborn as a god in the formless realm is an attainment of liberation because they’re able to abide in these for millions of years, of human years, in such a state during such a time that there’s no suffering. During this period of time, because there’s no bodily aggregate, there’s no sounds, smells, sights, anything that is completely as if in a deep sleep.
But eventually because they will have to awaken from such a state and they have had no opportunity to practice in any way to develop themselves, then essentially this period of time was a great loss. Some of these beings, having thought that they attain liberation and upon the exhaustion of the ability to remain in the formless realm see that in fact they are going to be reborn as hell beings, and due to this they develop the wrong view that there is no such thing as liberation, that all the constructive action that they accumulated in the past has only served as a cause for taking rebirth into hell, and they begin to develop this view, the wrong view. So in talking about the dissatisfactory of cyclic existence, we can talk about its dissatisfactoriness from many points of view. We can talk about it from classification of six, from classification of seven, and also the classification of three. And within this classification of three, there’s the third which is sometimes called pervasive compositional suffering or conditioned, the suffering of conditioned existence.
And though, for example, these gods in the upper realms do not experience the feelings of suffering, they still must undergo the suffering of condition and existence. That is to say that no matter how happy of a place that they may abide, it is necessarily only temporarily. It cannot remain forever, and therefore they are going to have to leave this happy situation, and this is one of the qualities of the suffering of conditioned existence. So we begin to see that wherever we take rebirth in cyclic existence, wherever place that we might exist, that place is a place that by its very nature is dissatisfactory, nowhere within cyclic existence is there a satisfactory type of rebirth. And seeing this, we develop the thought that to strive to be free from all rebirths within cyclic existence.
So in talking about the nature of cyclic existence, the Buddha said that all of the three realms, wherever in cyclic existence is, is like laying on a bed of thorns, that no matter where you however you might position yourself, you’re always getting stuck, and therefore it’s dissatisfactory. So why is it that we continually take rebirth in such situation as to being under the influence of afflicted emotions and karma? That it is the quality of the afflictive emotions, being under the control of the afflictive emotions and karma, that it forces us to take rebirth in dissatisfactory places. So we’ve taken this human rebirth, this human body, due to the force of karma. And especially in this case, the karma was of a constructive nature, that is, that through the power of such types of constructive actions as prostrations, ethics, generosity that these are all constructive actions.
But because they were coupled with afflicted emotions, rebirth as human beings with cyclic existence. So we take rebirth in either the preparations or the actual levels of the concentration and absorptions of the form and formless realms due to the factors of actions, karma, and afflictive emotions. The action is by means of the meditation on calm abiding and special insight as we mentioned before. This union of calm abiding and special insight is the action or the cause which throws us there are the two types of karma. Throwing karma is the throwing karma which throws us into that type of rebirth but it is due to afflictive emotion which brings about that completion of taking rebirth in the two upper realms.
So the preparations the upper realms are the throwing karma and the actual levels of the two upper realms are the completing karma. These are accompanied or conjoined with afflictive emotions. So likewise for the in the case of the formless realm, we have the preparations for the attainment of the formless realm is the throwing that action is the throwing karma. The actual attainment of that level is the completing karma. So we have two karmas, the throwing karma and completing karma, the preparation and the actual level of the formless realm.
And these are conjoined with the afflictive emotion, in this case the afflictive emotion of desire, and taking these together due to these actions and afflictive emotions we take rebirth in a formless realm. So if we were to summarize the essential point that’s under discussion is that though the conjoining and meaning of calm abiding and special insight is extremely important, if it’s not conjoined with renunciation, then it only serves as a cause for cyclic existence. Then on the other hand, any types of actions, any type of constructive actions that we may engage in, if they are conjoined with the mind of renunciation, not only do not act as a cause for cyclic existence, they act as a cause for liberation. Additionally, if our actions are not combined with the awakening heart, no matter what types of constructive actions they may be, they may do not serve as cause for complete Buddhahood. Then on the other hand, whatever positive actions we may engage in, if they’re combined or conjoined with the awakening heart, may serve as causes for complete Buddhahood.
So we can see from this that it’s necessary that our constructive actions be conjoined with renunciation in order that they serve as causes for liberation and that they be conjoined with a awakening heart in order that they serve as causes for attainment of complete Buddhahood. But simply these by themselves, they’re they’re extremely beneficial and important. That is renunciation and the awakening heart. They by themselves cannot serve as cannot by them only by only by these two, only by by merely these two can we attain Buddhahood, that we must they must be ultimately conjoined with the correct view, that in order to cut the root of cyclic existence, we must have an understanding of the correct view, just as in the that in the case of a tree, in order to cut down a thick tree, we need an axe, and the axe is the correct view of emptiness. So it becomes apparent that we must cultivate all three of these aspects.
Initially the development of determination to be free and renunciation, the awakening heart of bodhicitta, and the view of emptiness. So in development of renunciation, it’s necessary to meditate upon the two, arising of in what ways the the rising of what is the the way in which the karma or So to cultivate the understanding of how the bad migrations arise, the ability of the bad migrations arise, and cyclic existence in general within you know, that we are to seek understanding the conditions of, for example, the bad migrations developing the desire to the longing to be liberated from such a possibility. So we should see the faults of the bad migrations specifically and in general becoming mindful of the faults of cyclic existence in general and developing this sincere longing to be liberated from cyclic existence. That we are born within the three realms of cyclic existence due to the influence of afflictive emotion and karma and that anywhere within cyclic existence is of a dissatisfactory quality and coming to an understanding that we should make effort at gaining control whereby we no longer have to take rebirth under the influence of afflictive emotions and karma. So in talking about the, Dharmakīrti talks about the aggregates which produce cyclic existence.
When we say cyclic existence, it’s a factor due to which we have no freedom, due to the lack of control and being under the influence of afflictive emotions and karma. Taking rebirth without control due to the influence of afflictive emotions and karma is what is meant by cyclic existence. Taking rebirth what did I say, taking rebirth without control under the influence of afflictive emotions and karma is what we mean by cyclic existence. So this repeated, uncontrolled, taking rebirth under the influence of afflictive emotions and karma is what we mean when we say cyclic existence. Repeated, uncontrolled taking of rebirth under the influence of afflicted emotion and karma is cyclic existence.
So this repeated cycling that we’re experiencing, just as in a machine which has, for example, a flywheel. And this flywheel is being driven by a belt. And so as his belt turns, it turns the flywheel. The flywheel has no choice but to turn in accordance with this belt which is forcing it to turn. And this belt is afflictive emotion and karma.
As long as we’re creating afflictive emotion and karma, as long as this belt is present and forcing this wheel to turn, then the wheel itself has no choice in the metal but to keep turning. And this turning represents circling, the constant cycling through the various three realms from the upper realms down to the lower realm and then from the lower realm back up to the upper realm repeatedly again and again. But if we cut the belt then of course the flywheel is no longer under the control of this- is no longer being driven by the belt. And likewise if able to cut the creation of afflictive emotions or karma then that which is the belt which is forcing us to continually cycle in this way has been cut and we can go outside of this cyclic existence or we can cease turning. So we have some time.
We’ll take that time to answer questions. So we could, for example, we could meditate for five minutes and thinking about talking about this quality of cycling, circling. Now where do we cycle? Where do we circle? We circle through the three realms.
Why do we circle? We circle through being on the influence of afflictive emotions and karma. And who is it that circles? It’s the being which does the circling. So if you have some questions?
Various concentrations in this life, do you, like, does the state of mind progress through these different rooms? If you attain the concentrations, do do do you this life, if you attain a concentration, do you attain form realms? Yeah. I mean, like, not in a in a few months. Yeah.
Yeah. So having attained concentration in this life, take actual rebirth, to attain to take rebirth in a form you would have to have that karma, that action that that you’re creating by having attained that concentration activated at the time of death, and that would throw you into rebirth in a form of But having attained this concentration, your mind maybe it doesn’t associate with such things in desire. But Why are you in the concentration? Oh, I suppose so. But that’s, yeah, that’s not exactly what it is.
Oh, what are you thinking? Don’t know. They must have, like, say, if you attain calm abiding and special insight, that you then then maybe a lot of desires and things that were previously present, You you longer, you might have no longer associated with those things. Just in general? In general.
So if one has attained a preparation for a concentration, then there will no longer arise in your mind the afflictive emotions with respect to desire realm, but you the afflictive emotions with respect to the form realm will arise. So we can talk about the three levels of afflictive emotions within the realm of desire, form and form as each have their respective afflictive emotions. So then that means that at that level of mind you’re not associated with the desires associated with desire, So, in this life, if you attain a preparation for concentration, then it will not arise manifest afflictions with respect to the desire realm in your mind. Does that as you get better, because I can’t remember another word to use for that, does that stop karmic seeds ripening from previous bad karmic or obviously carrying some to be in this rebirth situation. So as you work more and more, does that negate the karmic?
See, you know, this stops some sort of ripening or Does it wipes them out? Wipes the slate clean almost. Does it does it progressing? Right. Developing the mind in this way, does it purify the past negative karma?
Yes. Slow but surely. Yeah. Does that therefore make it easier then to keep going? I mean, obviously, then the situation is is more conducive to to keep it going.
So they just keep adding to one another, helping each other a lot. By the force of, for example, the awakened heart developing this, then by the force of the power of this mind we’re able to purify, gradually purify all our past negative actions that we created and we will no longer create future, we will no longer create new negative actions due to just the force of, for example, awakening heart. That could work on a global scale. I’m just thinking, you know, the problems we have in society and environmentally are sort of escalating at such a horrific rate that perhaps, you know, if the individuals sort of So if one were to develop the awakening heart and one’s motivation were to teach others spiritual practices and help enable them to develop their own minds, then this would serve as a cause for raising the general level of consciousness around you. Though we can say that the majority of people in the world are declining, are regressing spiritually, there’s no reason to say that an individual cannot progress.
Yes? Does time Does time exist? Due the potency or the capacity of the karma, the time span is lengthened. For example, from the capacity or the potency within the upper realm is much more powerful therefore the time span is lengthened. The time is lengthened as compared to the potency of karma created in the desire realm and the human realm in which it doesn’t have that potency and it’s shortened.
So the time span is lengthened and shortened to the potency of the karma. So there’s no time. So due to the potency of the karma, gods’ bodies are longer, they have greater happiness and the lifespan is longer. And then also, as you go down, for example, into the hell realms, the lifespan becomes longer until it almost has no end. This is the potency of karma.
And then up in the highest realm, in the formless realm, the time is almost measured. So the beings remain in these various realms until the potency or the capacity of their karma to support such a realm is exhausted. Then once that capacity is deteriorated, that type of embodiment can no longer be supported and that one falls from that realm, one moves from that realm. It’s like winding up a clock, you know, the old spring what do call them? Wind up clocks.
It has a certain we can’t say exactly once we wind it up completely how long it’s going to last, but it will last as long as that power or that capacity that spring to keep turning that our hand. And then once that capacity is lost, clock stops. So this is like the karma, the potency of karma enabling you to stay in a particular realm. Night and day as we do. Because their bodies radiate out light, and it’s always light.
They don’t have darkness. They don’t they the only time it becomes dark is when they close their eyes to sleep then get when they get up, there’s not the passing of night and days as there is in here. So the body radiates from the the light radiates out from the body. So it’s generated by karma, and it’s considered that stars, moon, and sun gods radiating out light. So it’s brighter and greater than the.
It’s greater than the light that we are familiar with. Brighter. That’s it. Timachick? Timachick?
Yeah. Do you have a question? Yeah. As a being goes from, say, form or form as well to her own, So having one to ten is at this actual level of concentration or absorption in the upper realms due to the exhaustion of the karma, then they take rebirth in hell realm due to the force of the afflicted emotions within the desire realm. And so all this karma that they created was exhausted.
Their actual level deteriorates and their calm abiding and special insight deteriorates. So they really don’t have much power. Once they just fall down, these beings, they just fall down and then they develop the desire realm afflictions, and they’re just unlike anyone else. So they such beings have really no power. So it’s not quite the same situation because the afflictions of desire act as the example is given that if you close the door then the thief can’t come in.
If your door is open the thief can come in. The desire afflictions act as if closing the door to the calm abiding and the special insight of the upper gods. Once they develop that due to exhaustion of the potential of these, they ripen, the afflictive emotions of the desire realm are able to overpower, able to act as a doorway to block them, block their the type of calm abiding and special insight which cause them to be born in other realms. So that blocks that. But in that case, it’s not like me blocking the blocking the door.
If we develop renunciation, awakening heart, then these then these may go up and down, but there’s nothing which I say it’s not like closing the door. You know, we have in the past developed meditative equipoise and we can regain this ability. The door is not closed while we’re in this situation as we are now, but that situation of the God’s calm abiding and special insight is closed once they develop afflictive emotions of the desire realm. They cannot, and it’s likely to close the door on that possibility. But the door is not closed for us to keep regenerating these states.
So renunciation is like the tap which turns up the water, the flow of the afflictive emotions up to the desire realm. Renunciation is like turning the tap, and once the tap is turned, then the afflictive emotions up to the desire realm are no longer able to flow, arise. But if we don’t have renunciation, then they’re able to continually flowing. What? afflictive emotions of desire.
Yes. They don’t block calm abiding? Misrenunciation. So calm abiding and special insight have themselves cannot block the flow. They arise out of the afflictive emotion, desire realm, but renunciation is able to block this flow.
I was just asking Rinpoche if you to retain calm abiding, if you need renunciation. Because you don’t need renunciation because within non-Buddhist schools, non-Buddhist practitioners attain calm abiding. But from the Buddhist perspective, they don’t have renunciation since they don’t have the determination to arise, emerge from the three levels of suffering. The suffering of suffering, the suffering of change, but most importantly the third, the suffering of conditioned existence that one must have the definite thought to emerge out of conditioned existence to have fully qualified renunciation. Therefore, any type of simply having renunciation of desire realm would be a coarse renunciation.
And depends upon that. You could attain a calm abiding, but it wouldn’t be actual renunciation. So, Rinpoche I was thinking that it would be a great advantage for us if we were to meet in between actual teachings and to have discussions and debate back and forth what was said and clarify doubts. This would be very beneficial that we have a teaching, then we have a long break, then another teaching. It’s very difficult to keep in mind the ideals and the points.
That if there was something that occurred between the teachings with some discussion, then it would stimulate us and help us to understand and develop ourselves. So we can have debates. So we can through this process, we can we come up with with new questions, you know, and and can explore them. Okay.