Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Jeffrey Hopkins explores the Buddhist understanding of death, the intermediate state, and rebirth in this 48-minute talk from 1983. He addresses a central question: can a being shift to a lower rebirth if unable to find a suitable destination during the 49-day intermediate state? He clarifies the mechanics of the seven-week cycle—each week involves repeated deaths and rebirths within the intermediate state itself—and examines the controversy over whether “days” are measured in human time or the time of the realm one will enter. Hopkins walks through the detailed physiological descriptions in his source text: how consciousness exits the body through different orifices depending on the rebirth destination, the size and appearance of intermediate beings, and the sensations accompanying lower, equal, or higher rebirths. He addresses the dreamlike nature of womb-entry, the role of karma in attraction to parents, and what awareness might exist through this process. Throughout, Hopkins balances technical exposition with psychological interpretation, noting which descriptions he finds difficult and encouraging practitioners to consider these teachings in relation to daily meditation on the mind’s luminous nature. The teaching concludes with discussion of how to die peacefully and what mental states at death most support a fortunate rebirth.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 06 Death, IS and R no date.mp3
UUID: 7c1288e9-5956-47f5-a4da-34b3c20d2eba
Teacher: Jeffrey Hopkins
Collection: Death, Intermediate State and Rebirth (Jeffrey Hopkins)
Date: 1983 (exact day not recorded)
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Words: ~5,608
So then the question comes, is it possible if you’re in the intermediate state of a human to switch out of that and be born as another type of being? And there are two different opinions within the Indian commentaries. One that you cannot switch, and the other that you can. The lama whose book this was explained that for those who say that you can switch, this would be from not being able in forty nine days to find a place of rebirth that was suited to you. That doesn’t again mean that you’re inspecting the places of rebirth, but just that the rebirth is suited to your karma.
If that can’t If that is not found, one can be reborn one rung down. In other words, if you were to be reborn as a human, be reborn as an animal. Or if as an animal, then as a hungry ghost. If as a hungry ghost, then as a hell being. I guess there’s a lot of room in the hells since if you’re going to be reborn as a hell being, you can’t go any lower.
There are great descriptions of hells in Buddhist literature. Tremendous descriptions, which, are are quite moving in many ways. For me, it seems to indicate a level of my mind that, you know, that exists presently and states either that I pass through during the day or in dream time or on an unconscious level and constantly or frequently in. So, one, it would seem from the way the sentences are structured that within the intermediate state, as a human, if you couldn’t find a place of rebirth in forty nine days, at the end you would be reborn in a lower level. Not that you would be reborn in the intermediate state in a lower level.
Doesn’t seem so. Now, in the intermediate state, the lifetimes proceed by weeks. One could be reborn immediately. Said, if one is particularly non virtuous or particularly virtuous, the rebirth tends to be very quick. But, if in the first week’s time one cannot find the place of rebirth, then one dies within the intermediate state, passing from states one through eight, and then back from eight to one and is reborn in another intermediate state.
And this can be done six times for a total of forty nine. Is that right? Six? Sometimes it’s hard to count. I mean, it’s seven weeks.
The first week when you’re born into it is your death from the old lifetime, right? Then the next one would be that’s one, first week. Then the beginning of the second week would be a death within the intermediate state. Beginning of the third, death within the intermediate state. Beginning of the fourth, death within the state.
The fifth death within the sixth death, beginning of the seventh, yes. Okay. So, it could happen six times that you were reborn within the intermediate state. Then, what are these days? In the intermediate state, apparently you don’t see sun and moon.
Therefore, you obviously are not keeping track of the days at all. And there’s some controversy on this, whether the days refer to the length of a day of the being as whom you will be reborn. In other words, there are world systems and states and so forth where a day is particularly long. And could it be that sort of day? This author comes on the side of using human time as the basis for deciding how long these days, how long these weeks will be in the intermediate state.
Some people disagree. He says it would be absurd given that in some hell states and so forth, they’re very long days for, the intermediate state to go on for millions of years before you could find the proper place of rebirth. The assumption being that forty nine days is usually enough for anyone to find the suitable place of rebirth, given that you can move so quickly and so forth. So, in these deaths in the intermediate state, the wind body of the intermediate being gathers in stages from the top and bottom into the heart, like breath on a mirror gathering from the limits. Now, this is said to be how we die in a dream state also.
I’ve never had that experience. Has anyone here had the experience of, like, the body in the dream state? Even quickly. I’m sure it’s quick, melting from the limits down to the heart. I haven’t.
Having read this sort of thing, you can, sometimes tune into it. For instance, hearing that you could take rebirth as an animal, was able to notice one night that I was that I was a dog in a dream. You know, we have many dreams that we don’t remember in the morning. You can be tossing around, jumping all over the place, shouting, screaming, saying all sorts of things. The person says to you the next morning, oh, you know, what was going on?
You say, what? Nothing? I don’t remember anything. So nobody’s had that experience, of the dream body melting from the outer limits. I would think it would be very difficult.
I mean, they say that you pass through the eight states very quickly. Therefore, the melting must be very quick, And so, it must be hard to tune in to that. I want to, though. So, as we were saying earlier, if in the intermediate state you see your own body, you don’t feel my body with respect to that body. This is a difference, again, between this text and the Book of the Dead.
The Book of the Dead is particularly aimed at persons who have engaged in certain practices so that during the intermediate state, various deities and so forth will appear to the person, and one will get a chance to become alert and recognize what kind of state one is in. Whereas, this text is written from the point of view of technically laying out the intermediate state in general. Thus, it doesn’t bring up anything about certain deities appearing on the first day, second day, third day, fourth day, and so forth. These deities, being specific deities that the meditator has meditated upon to cause to appear at certain times during the intermediate state. Because during the process of death and during the intermediate state, one gets many chances for engaging in profound practice.
So, one wants to take advantage of various levels of practice at various times during the intermediate state. One reason why I like this book so much was that it was it didn’t have this, part in it about various deities and so forth appearing, which is which is limited to people who are meditating on those specific deities, was technically laying out what was happening. So, as I’ve been saying, the text doesn’t proceed in an orderly way from the point of view of time. It goes back now and talks about how you exit from the body after death. Now you leave this red and white drop, the mind of clear light leaves this red and white drop, you wouldn’t have a sense of leaving a red and white drop.
But technically, physiologically, is what they’re saying is happening. And then you exit from the body. It says a hell being exits from the anus. Some of these I have difficulty with. It says later that somebody being born in the hells and so forth has a sense of going downward.
To be reborn as a human of going on the same plane, and to be reborn in a better state going upward. I can see that, because psychologically we talk about being down, we talk about being high, We, the sky associated with lighter qualities. The earth associated with, darker, more what do you say? Lower qualities. Yeah, higher and lower.
We use that vocabulary a great deal. You know, if you show your feet to somebody, it’s you know, even in our culture, I mean, if you purposely show your feet to somebody, it’s sort of dirty and so forth. So, when it says later, when it describes the sense of going downward on the same plane or upward, it’s describing what the being who’s in the intermediate state experiences. Here it’s giving a physiological description that the person doesn’t necessarily experience. Alright?
It’s like the surgeon’s view. The surgeon’s view or the, you know, the scientists who, what do you call them, a neurologist’s view of mind and our experience of mind are quite different. They both have their place. So, here, in this description, it’s from the outside point of view where that being is exiting from the body. So, that the hell being exits from the anus, alright.
It’s alright. Going to a lower state. There’s a hungry ghost, though, it says, from the mouth. Our hungry ghosts are particularly concerned with food and drink. They’re like tantalus.
You know, they arrive at some drink and it recedes. Or they arrive at some drink and they pick it up, and then their throat is tied in a knot. And it’s just a little opening going down so they they can’t get much. Or they drink and it turns into molten bronze inside the mouth and throat. It says that an animal exits from the urinary passage.
You know, I’m just stunned by that. I don’t know what to think. As a human as a human, it says, from the eye. This the eye. As a god of the desire realm from the navel, as a yakṣa from the nose, god of magical accomplishment from the ear.
If one is to be reborn in the form realm, the exit is from the middle of the brow. And if in the formless realm, it’s from the crown of the head. Well, later it says that there is no intermediate state in the formless realm. It’s talking about consciousness here exiting. So here with the description about the formless realm, it must be referring to the consciousness and not to the intermediate being.
So myself, this particular short section, I don’t quite know what to do with it. Leave it in a state of suspended judgment. So, even if the consciousness originally exits from the heart, then within the body it exits from various orifices. But now it’s famous within Buddhism that consciousness doesn’t need any sort of opening to pass through this or that. It doesn’t need any opening at all.
So, why after death would one need an opening to exit from the body? Well, it could only be if you were convinced you needed an opening. I still know what to do with it. Okay. It’s all right.
Now, within the intermediate state, one can see beings of similar type or those below. And people with clairvoyance can see beings in the intermediate state, too. The size, as we were saying, is that of a five or six year old youth, but it doesn’t have to be so. Now, one has a visual sense that’s sort of like a dominant visual sense within the intermediate state. For somebody who’s going to a bad transmigration, it’s like a blackness.
Or a good transmigration, it’s like a white cloth or moonlight. The color of a being in the intermediate state is similarly linked with the level and type of intermediate state that it is, being black like a charred log for a hell being, like water for a hungry ghost, like smoke for an animal, gold for a god of the desire realm or a human, and, white for a god of the form realm. So the if you’re going to be reborn upwards, have a sense of going upwards, of a human as the sense of going straight, and of the bad migration going downwards. I think that makes sense. And these are people who had a flat earth theory.
So, you definitely would be going up to these realms that are above. But psychologically, we are in a flat earth you know, system still. You go up or high, etcetera. You go down. Actually, there are books that set forth the measurements on where various hot and cold hills are, and if you follow them out, apparently from India, you end up in the States for some of the hot hells and so forth.
As the Dalai Lama said, he was asking young people, he said, do you feel bad that Buddha didn’t measure these things properly? Saying that this really wasn’t the important thing. Important thing of the Four Noble Truths, the Two Truths, basic psychological processes. So, if one’s going to be reborn in the formless realm, there’s no intermediate state, one passes right from the eighth level of mind to one doesn’t go backwards through the other seven, but passes to the type of mind that the formless realm being will have. Now, that doesn’t mean that it’s on the level of the eighth mind, but that one doesn’t pass through the seven.
Whereas everyone else passes back through the seven levels and has to pass through an intermediate state, even if the intermediate state is a moment. There are said to be deeds of immediate retribution, killing one’s parents, what, causing blood to with evil intent to flow from the body of a Buddha, making, dissension within the spiritual community. What else? I’m missing one. Father and mother causing blood to flow from the body of a Buddha with evil intent, causing dissension in the spiritual community.
That’s five itself. Father, mother, one, two. Yes. Killing one’s father, mother, or a foe destroyer. Exactly.
A foe destroyer is an arhat. This is somebody who has become liberated from cyclic existence. So, in fact, it’s of no harm to the foe destroyer that one is killing such a being. But the amount of non virtue that’s involved with a deed has to do with what that person represents. Father and mother having provided a home for oneself and so forth is very this is the complete opposite of recognition of kindness.
And if one with evil intent causes blood to flow from the body of a Buddha, well, it doesn’t make any difference to a Buddha to be killed or not, but there is a difference to oneself in that this is a person who teaches these, attitudes of love, compassion, meditation on emptiness, whatever, that can lead one out of cyclic existence. So what could be a stronger statement of dislike of that sort of teaching than to kill a Buddha who’s teaching that? And thus, by turning away, that means one is turning away from any sort of goodness, and thus means one would be born in a in a particularly bad situation temporarily. So these even with these deeds of immediate retribution, there is an intermediate state, albeit a brief one. Now the tanks considers a problem in that our the Buddha of this era, who died in India, according to some systems, in four eighty three BC, was said to have entered his mother’s womb eighty one or eighty two years earlier, in the form of an elephant.
She had a dream in which this elephant merged with her own body. Well, the text has just said, if you’re going to be reborn as a human, your intermediate state will be that in the shape of a human. So this has to be explained away. I mean, and it can be explained that this was her dream and this is the way she experienced it. And that’s quite understandable.
A very powerful being was entering one’s womb, one could dream of an elephant, a white elephant. So are there questions about the maybe we’ll just go on to the end of the intermediate state. Or not? Questions? Let’s talk a little.
Yes? It’s interesting. In this next section about so we will go on to this. There seem to be various descriptions that in the process of entering the womb, one can have the sense of entering into a nice house or some filthy cave. If it’s a filthy cave, the rebirth will be bad.
If it’s a nice house, pleasant surroundings and so forth, then the rebirth will be good. Another description is that one sees the father and mother copulating and wishes to copulate with the, if it’s the mother, if one is to be reborn as a male, wishes to copulate with one’s mother. If to be reborn as a female, one wishes to copulate with the father. Goes over there and sees only the sexual organ of that being. Alright?
Now, how the other one leaves, I don’t know, but since we’re dealing in a dreamlike activity, that’s very easy. If you see father and mother copulating, you go over there and say it’s myself in coming in this lifetime to be reborn as a male, then wanting to copulate with my mother, somehow my father disappears from the scene. But I get there and all I see is her sexual organ. So that makes me angry. With that anger, I die in intermediate state and end up entering her womb.
So one just it’s interesting. According to that explanation, one dies between desire and hatred. The desire to copulate and then the anger of getting there and just finding this sexual organ. Now, to be reborn as a male, one then, what’s the mode, again, that has to be explained in detail? The book has tremendous detail for such processes.
One enters into the mouth or the top of head of the male and mixes with what they’re calling seminal fluid that’s gathering and is going to come out of the phallus of the male and one comes out of the phallus of the male into the female’s womb. Another description is that one just plain enters the female’s womb. If one is to be reborn as a female, there are descriptions that one merges with the female who is copulating with the male. So, And then, just things I remember hearing. Like I was saying earlier, the butcher seeing some sheep and rushing to that area and then ending up in, say, the womb of the sheep.
Or rushing to the area and that ends up as the hot hell. Are many different descriptions. Yes? I just find the discrepancy that not all angst and coagulation end up with fertilization. Yes.
This would, I mean, maybe you could say that it’s the presence of the intermediate state being entering that womb that leads to conception. And in the Buddhist way, you see, you have to have the three factors in order to have conception. Yes? Right. Yeah.
So now what causes, as you were saying, what causes your attraction? Is is it that you like this mother and father? Is it I’m I’m one can just speculate that you’ve the mother and father, they’re in a particular situation, they are particular types of people, and that the intermediate state being senses the situation of those beings, and thus you’re attracted. Okay? Maybe it’s that.
I have no, teaching on this. I haven’t received anything on it. Or if you get down to western genetics, which indeed we have to take account of, maybe the intermediate state being has, I mean, it’s extremely subtle and some attraction to a particular, genetic makeup. I mean, you’re drawn to the place of that, genetic makeup. You know, who knows?
Yes. Does the mind goes through the process of pre birth? Does it stay in the same continuity of pre birth, or No, it’s individual and one ends up in the womb and then goes from states one through eight, okay, and then back eight to one, and there you are in the womb and can’t get out. I would say that some people are aware at this time. Some people are.
In other words, they’ve maintained awareness from the intermediate state to the new state, the birth state of being the conception state, really, or post conception state of being in the womb. Some people are able to revive memory shortly after birth, lose it later. Some children often say, well, people who remember that it’ll go to age seven or eight or so, and then, by then disappears due to the fact that you’re too used to the new body. But some people not remembering at all in intermediate state or in the next lifetime. To me, it’s like dreams that it’s our mind, but we’re not around, you know?
So, Correct. Yes. Right. And that just goes on and on. And on.
Right, until one leaves. And there are other worlds doing this too. Correct. Yes. That’s the system.
In the whole solar? Yes. In the whole universe. Yes. So, if there are more humans, say, in this system, even if you added up the total number of sentient beings now, you said there are more bugs, thus once there are more bugs, there clearly would have to be more sentient beings in total on this planet.
Well, they’re decreasing somewhere else. That’s the theory. So, a lot of contraception going on in the western world interferes with this whole process? It would seem. Yes.
But then would go somewhere else. In other words, the intermediate state being who has some karmic connection with these parents, is prevented. Can be prevented by sickness in male or female, various causes. But then would go somewhere else. Yes?
I can myself imagine that someone becomes alert and realizes, Ah, I’ve taken rebirth, I don’t want this, and attempts to get out. And, it’s said in the general teaching is that you can’t get out, but perhaps makes so much trouble that, this leads to then death, but then another intermediate state and taking rebirth somewhere else. It’s, you know, it’s rather fruitless. I can imagine that myself. But, also with stillbirths, situations, within situations due to the constituents inside the womb that would make life impossible.
But indeed, yes, vacating. I would think. But it’s not easy to vacate. That they’re caught. That they have been caught.
Trapped. Oh, I see. Even somebody who’s tried to stop it or couldn’t stop it, like even tried to get out of the womb and couldn’t. That’s interesting. Choice.
You have no choice, yes, but This is, you know, sometimes we have the sense, that parents copulated and created us, therefore, you know, it’s your job to take care of me. You know, just keep writing the checks or giving me the money, and I can dump on you as much as I want, and, you know, you can’t say the slightest bad thing to me, but I’ll take extreme offense. In the Buddhist way, it’s quite opposite, you see, because as an intermediate state being, you’re seeking a place of rebirth that’s suitable to your karma, and the parents have provided this. And, thus, there’s a great deal of reflection, no matter how much rage one has, on these basic facts in an attempt to respond to the kindness of the being in providing that situation. A lot is done to reawaken the feelings of early childhood with respect to especially one’s mother, the tremendous closeness.
And that can be quite helpful in a culture like ours, where with weaning the various types of weaning that we go through in the life and the society encouraging us to dislike the parents in, many ways. It can be helpful. I of the rage as it truly is. Of just having to exist. But then, in the Buddhist way, a rage against having to exist is totally pointless in that one has to exist.
It’s like being angry that fire is hot. It’s the nature of fire to be hot. And it’s the nature for us to have consciousness and to exist. One Not negotiable. But where negotiation comes in is that it said that the nature of consciousness is pure, the basic nature.
That all of our problems do not reside in the very nature of consciousness. Therefore, the clear light nature of consciousness can be separated from these adventitious defilements. And that’s very interesting then. Then, you know, basic existence is marvelous from that point of view. That’s a question of then how to separate from these defiled states.
So, of course, if at the time of the mind of clear light one became aware and was able to stay in it, one’s there. So, what one often does in a daily practice is like early in the morning, I don’t know, when you wake up, your mind, your, mental consciousness in the Buddhist way is awake, functioning, but the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body consciousness isn’t. And you’re sort of lying there within this withdrawn state. And in that state, if one has to sit up in order to meditate, sit up. But otherwise, if you can keep awake and keep lying down, and try to get a hold of consciousness, because your mind is so much withdrawn, and get a sense of the luminous and knowing nature of mind.
Get a sense of what consciousness is. And, that is close to the mind of clear light. It has an affinity with the mind of clear light. Practice that. Keep ahold of it.
And it makes one’s day sharper, brighter. I can conduct business better. Yes. Someone. Yes.
And Parents aren’t intending it. The karmic connection is there, so the parents don’t want the child, but you know, there’s the opportunity for the intermediate state to get its rebirth and it takes it. No matter how difficult, at least in my experience, no matter how difficult the situation has become with one’s parents, there at least were times as a child when one experienced very strong feelings of attachment, of closeness, of love to the mother. And there are practices within Buddhism to reawaken those feelings. Now the reason for this is that one is seeking to develop strong compassion to everyone.
And if you’re going to develop strong feelings to everyone, those strong feelings have an affinity with these very strong feelings you had with respect to this one being. So in order to do that, one has to lay aside all of the garbage, and with anyone there’s a lot of garbage, but lay aside the garbage and let these, very, very deep feelings come out. We’re often afraid of them because, you know, like your parents, at least to a certain age, at least to age at least to one’s own age of seventy, one’s own parents, if they’re ninety, still want to run your life. So, you know, are your shoes polished? And you feel, if you have these close feelings or a sense of their kindness, that you come under their control.
Well, I know that seems to just be a mistake, that merely because you have an appreciation of kindness or closeness, at least for those things that were provided, that that doesn’t necessitate that you immediately have to go polish your shoes, you know, or do all the other things that the person wants. In the Buddhist way, one is attempting to realize this with respect to everyone, because everyone’s been one’s mother or best of friends in a former lifetime. And to develop this very strong sense of closeness with everyone. Obviously, you can’t do everything everyone wants. Rather, one makes a strong decision on what will be helpful to others.
And in this context, it’s to recognize the basic nature of mind, get out of cyclic existence and so forth, and seeks to help people that way. So rather than being, subjecting oneself to others in a weak position, it actually, it seems, makes one stronger and makes both in the sense of courage and makes oneself stronger in the sense of feelings. It seems to me that they’re trying to make use of these early, very strong feelings in taking the bias out of this close attachment and extending it to everyone. Excuse me? To take down.
Take what on? This bad situation? Yes. No, I don’t think so. I mean, somebody I mean, there are supposedly beings who can choose their place of rebirth who might choose to take a bad rebirth, but I’m not saying that.
I’m saying one’s own karma draws one into the situation. I don’t think choice. Like, you know, sometimes you get the sense with the intermediate state that you’re flying around and you look that wouldn’t be a bad place. Well, it’s the best one I can find. Not like that.
You end up there. Yes. I think it must be there. I think, the basic imprint that one is running on is the one that was activated near the time of the last death, okay? But that that, it must affect one’s mind in some way during the next lifetime, yes.
There are two descriptions in here about seeing the parents copulate. One is that they actually aren’t copulating at that time, but one is seeing the semen and in their system blood, but semen and egg of the father and mother and sees them in a mistaken way as a couple copulating, which then would, you know, Western way, guess, would have to say, well that’s the more reasonable system since conception doesn’t take place at the time of copulation. Whereas another system is that you actually see the parents copulating and at that time enter. Is it possible to have control over those feelings at the time of dying? Oh.
That’s what one is seeking to do, to during the time of death, not get excited, but to be alert, knowing what’s going on, and seeking to generate love, compassion, and so forth, to become alert during the intermediate state, and to be having wishes of, you know, may I take rebirth in whatever situation would be suitable to help others, not out of a wish to copulate with somebody or getting angry in return not have these kinds of thoughts. Yes? Is this the the pious practicing Christian who believes when he dies, he’s sitting at the right hand of Jesus, is he here for a big surprise? I don’t know about that. If you look at it from the Buddhist point of view, having well, let’s backtrack a little bit.
The Dalai Lama reported that some nurses have told him that religious people die worse than non religious people. That they had observed this. Not in general, but that it had frequently happened. And it would seem that this would come from setting goals for yourself in your practice that you don’t achieve and feeling bad about it, and then feeling, oh, I’m really going to have to pay for such and such. All right?
Now, it seems that one needs to be sensible. As a religious practitioner, one needs to be sensible, or as a person who’s seeking to transform the mind, one has to be sensible. If one has done whatever one could do, whether one has achieved it or not, you know, you’re seeking to achieve such and such, but you don’t. If you have done what you can do, there’s no regret. You’ve done.
You should die peacefully. In other words, you should tell yourself, I should die peacefully. I mean, you know, I shouldn’t get excited. I’ve done what I can do. I didn’t achieve much, but I’ve done what I can do, and therefore be satisfied.
You see, religious people sometimes set absurd goals for themselves. Now obviously they can’t reach it, so then they’re punishing themselves for not reaching it. So you see in that way, sort of they’re not cleverly practicing. One’s going to practice, take part in mental development. There are all sorts of problems within the personality that are not going to allow it to be done easily.
Therefore, cleverly practice realizing if one has done what one can do, there isn’t any regret. If one hasn’t done what one could have done, then it’s tough. You know, what one can do in one’s own station. Then said it can be a time of tremendous regret, regret bringing about trouble. So similarly, from the descriptions of people who have partially died and come back to life, it seems that, you know, they meet with, you know, for Christian meeting with Jesus, Buddhist meeting with Buddha or some bodhisattvas.
So actually, you might from the Buddhist point of view, you might get confirmation that you will sit at the right hand of Jesus or or whatever. You know, at least some temporary, confirmation. But, you know, who could say? So, it’s late. This afternoon at Excuse me?
Well, we’re at one thirty. We could make it one forty five. One forty five this afternoon. Two hours is really needed to get lunch and so forth, isn’t it? So this is the last session of my three week trip.
Came in at, Brisbane a few weeks ago, went up to Eudlo, back to Brisbane for a few lectures, up to Eudlo again for a seminar. Back to Brisbane. That’s sort of like the intermediate state being flying around. Back to Brisbane, Brisbane to Sydney. Three lectures in Sydney down to Melbourne.
Seminar series of three lectures. Then from Melbourne to Adelaide.