Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Why don’t some Bodhisattvas show signs of irreversibility until the eighth ground — even though they have realised emptiness long before? In this 85-minute session, Geshe Pema Tsering answers that question by working through the eight aspects of profundity in Maitreya’s Ornament for Clear Realisations. He distinguishes sharp- from dull-faculty practitioners, explains how the boundary between meditation and post-meditation gradually blurs as one approaches Buddhahood, and unpacks each aspect — profound production, cessation, thusness, objects of knowledge, and more — stressing a Tibetan phrase absent from the translation: these realisations must enter the heart, not merely be recognised. A student question on appearance and emptiness draws an analogy with a computer screen. Best suited to those already following a structured Mahāyāna curriculum.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 15 OCR 2005 04 14.mp3
UUID: 095c6b6d-202d-4e1f-9bea-c21fb55e1d9a
Teacher: Geshe Pema Tsering
Collection: Ornament for Clear Realisations (Geshe Pema Tsering)
Date: 2005-04-14
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 85.5 minutes
Words: ~5,559
It’s it is deals with the the quote from the sutras and in shastras, yeah, that talk about the path of meditation, its features, its basis, its divisions, and it’s the signs of irreversibility on it. Right? Okay. Thanks. Right.
So we’ve gotten to the bit in the book. Because I said, Geshe was wanting to know what you had in your notes so he could find a bit in here that matched what had in your notes, what you had in your notes. And a couple other times, you tried to skip over things you’ve had in your notes, and I said, you know, they had that in their notes. So we just Yes. I’ll put it up closer to my mouth.
Yes? Mhmm. Mhmm. So the what we’re dealing with tonight is the signs of of irreversibility the path of meditation. So that’s what we need to look at first and then we’re going to go through the features, the basis of the features, the divisions and the signs of irreversibility again.
So signs of irreversibility on the path of meditation as mentioned on this occasion, are said to be aspect the eight profound aspects. Okay. Yeah. So Okay. So they’re the eight aspects that the eight characteristics of a being on the path of meditation’s eighth ground that has perceived emptiness and abandoned all the things that need to be abandoned to achieve the eighth ground.
So they perceive emptiness and through the perception of emptiness they have at the eighth ground then they have these eight characteristics or these eight aspects. So what we’re looking at here is a Bodhisattva in post meditative equipoise on the eighth ground. They have the signs of of irreversibility, right? Signs of irreversibility of attaining the highest enlightenment that are called the development of profundity and so on, these eight aspects, and they have invited them or they have developed in their meditations and teachings and teachings and teachings and teachings and they become visible through their speech and behavior when they’re in post meditative when they’re in meditation. Oh.
Okay. So I reckon that I made no sense then because I was trying to figure it out. So I’m gonna say it again, and hopefully, it’ll be clearer. Alright? So if we look at a Bodhisattva in post meditation who has come out of Meditative Equipoise and is on the eighth ground of the path of meditation, now this being has what are called the signs of irreversibility.
That is, they will not turned around from attaining the highest enlightenment. Yes? As they are attaining signs of irreversibility on the path of meditation, they are beings of duller capacity. Now, the signs of irreversibility that they attain in this state are called the Eight Aspects and they’re called the Eight Aspects of Profundity because they come as a result of the meditation on emptiness that was in the meditation stage of this level of the path. Now, after they have attained this meditation on emptiness at this level of the path, when they go into post meditation, their physical behavior show eight different aspects of pure behavior that are called the signs of irreversibility on the path of meditation.
And that probably wasn’t any way it wasn’t totally clear, but it’s better. Okay. So these eight aspects are said to be that which is compounded, that which isn’t compounded, that which is an object, and that which is a subject, that which is a owned and that which is the owner, the agent, that which is profound and that which isn’t profound. So that makes eight different aspects. Okay.
Geshe-la said that we’re going I said, you You you just three pages in their notes as well. And he’s like, yeah. Yeah. But that’s they’re not the signs of irreversibility. They’re a tangent, and they go on forever, so let’s just skip them.
Okay. Geshe-la said the next thing to do is the signs of irreversibility on the path of meditation. The other things that come before that aren’t the signs of irreversibility on the path of meditation, they’re this path meditation. And the next stage of the text talks about the signs of irreversibility. So we should leave the tangent, he said, and go on to the signs of irreversibility.
So we’re up to page a hundred and nine in the notes. Okay. Maybe we we will get on to the sublime continuum before I leave. Yes. Okay.
Mhmm. Okay. So from those things that we just went through so that we have there was that which is compounded and that which isn’t compounded. So from that which is compounded we have profound production. From that which isn’t compounded we have profound cessation.
From that which is the object there is profound thusness. From that which is the subject we have profound objects of knowledge. From that which is possessed there is oh hang on, I’ll try that again. That which is compounded is profound production. That which is uncompounded is profound cessation.
That which is the object is profound thusness. Now that which is the subject is profound objects of knowledge. That which is the that which is the things that are possessed is profound knowledge. That which is the that doesn’t make sense. I’m just repeating what I said.
I was just saying it in English and thought that doesn’t make any sense. Can we rewind? Alright. Oh, sorry. Okay.
This because it was confusing because it said there’s eight aspects and then they went on to talk about six things. And so Geshe-la was saying that, okay, we should split this word in two because it’s supposed to be eight and we could only find six. Therefore, if we split this one in two, then it became eight. Alright? And then we go on to the next section and it says that two belong to one and there is six.
Alright? So I have to redo it now. Alright? Okay. So to start off with you probably don’t remember any of it anyway.
But there was you remember, Mocha? Okay. Cool. There was that which is which is compounded and that which isn’t compounded. That which is an object and that which is a subject.
Right? And then we thought that there was two, it is that which is That which is profound behavior. Okay, so there’s only five at the beginning. Yes? And so then what we have is that from that which is compounded, you have the profundity that realizes dependent origination.
Yeah, so when you say something’s profound, it usually refers to emptiness. Yeah? So there’s profundity that realizes dependent origination. Then there’s the profundity that realizes cessation. Okay?
From the second one which is that which is not compounded, you have thusness or what have they translated as thusness? Yes, well done. Thusness, that’s this word that’s a tathagata in Sanskrit. So the profundity of thusness. And then from the third one which was the object, you have the objects of knowledge.
Yeah? And the knowledge of the objects of knowledge, which is the so you have profound objects of knowledge and profound knowledge. Right? So the knowledge there is the the knowledge of the objects of knowledge. Okay?
So then from the the fourth one, which was the behavior, the profound profound behavior, you then have the the you have profound behavior itself, which is profound activities, translated as profound activity there, profound non duality, and profound skillful means. All three of those are from one. This one? Mhmm. Alright.
And this one. Mhmm. Mhmm. So from having a perception of emptiness that is this refined and is that that is this refined that you achieve on the eighth level of the path of meditation. It then means that these results come about in your behavior, alright?
And they’re in speech and physical activity. So that means that you can see the understanding of profound production and cessation, vastness and and the rest of them. Right. So the reason that these eight things are allowed to be called so it says, for example, profound production and profound thusness. Now this can seem contradictory because the profoundness is something referred to as emptiness.
So it may seem that having something that is empty production or empty cessation or empty thusness seems like a contradiction. Or the fact that these things can all be realized in the same meditation on emptiness may seem like a contradiction. But they only seem like a contradiction to those who are grasping your inherent existence. So only those who experience reality in the same way that we do at the moment. So for beings who have realized emptiness because they perceive the commonality of the emptiness of all phenomena, these things don’t appear as being, they don’t appear as being contradictory.
They don’t appear as being yeah. Contradictory. I’m just trying to think another way of saying it, but anyway, they don’t appear to be mutually ex exclusive. Alright? So but for those who are very able to perceive the emptiness and therefore this common feature or common reality of all of these objects, it doesn’t make any difference.
They are able to perceive they all develop all these things from perception of emptiness. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. Okay.
So if a being is a being of dull capacity, then this level, the eighth ground of the path of meditation is where they attain the signs of irreversibility. Now, these up until this point, they have understood emptiness because they’ve realized, they’ve realized the emptiness on the path of seeing. But up until this point, their behavior in post meditation, their behavior of speech and their behavior of mind. And when I’m saying behavior, it’s not like behaving well, but just the things that they do, The things that they say and the things that they, physically do. Yeah?
Doesn’t fit or doesn’t show signs of irreversibility. If I think she looked very confused and like, what is she talking about? And I’m I’m wondering the same thing. It it makes sense in Tibet. I’m just having trouble speaking English tonight.
Okay. The the the okay. I’ll start again. I’ll start from another perspective. If you’re really smart and you’re really sharp faculty bodhisattva, then you achieve signs of irreversibility at the path of preparation.
Alright? And at that point, you start showing signs that you’re gonna become a Buddha and it’s gonna happen quite quickly. If you’re a middling kind of smart, then you achieve signs of irreversibility and the path of seeing. Alright? And then you There are signs that people can pick up on if they are at the same level that you are going to attain enlightenment quickly.
Yeah? And if you’re a dull capacity Bodhisattva, even though everybody else has signs of irreversibility all the way up until the seventh ground, you don’t. Right? Up and then on the eighth ground, what happens is your behavior of speech and physical physicality, physical and verbal behavior, starts to match your understanding of emptiness, Alright? Your your the things that you say and the things that you do carry with them the wisdom of your perception of emptiness in post meditation.
So when you’re in when they’re in meditative equipoise, meditative equipoise is all the same. Meditative Equipoise is focused on emptiness. But in post meditation, if you’re a dull faculty being, you don’t develop the signs that say that you’re going to these eight signs that we’re talking about here of attaining enlightenment without any reversing until the eighth ground. Alright? So beings who have sharp faculties have these signs on the seventh ground.
Their verbal and physical behavior matches their perception of emptiness. But those with dull faculties don’t develop these signs until the eighth ground. Mhmm. That was easier, wasn’t it? Okay.
So in general, they’re sharp faculty because they’ve realized emptiness. But from amongst those who are beings on the path of meditation, they’re the dullest. Okay. So, Joy, this is why of many times when we’ve been going through this, they keep saying things like the definition on this occasion. The definition on this occasion.
Okay. So this is why oh, okay. This is why the definition of a sign of irreversibility of a Bodhisattva on the path of meditation is a perfect proof that serves to convince that the Bodhisattva on the path of meditation who possesses it is irreversible from highest complete enlightenment. Okay. So the I just went, right.
There’s the tran there’s the translation of the definition. I’ll just read it out, and then Geshe-la started to comment on it, and I realized it was a bit different. And I he said, what did they say in the translation? I told him what they said in the translation. He goes, what did they do?
Go for the cliff or like, go for the easy version. Alright. So here we go. Let’s have a look at his definition. And so So the behavior of speech and body of post meditation that exhibits the eight aspects that we were talking about before and in particular the clear realizations in post meditation.
The Bodhisattva who has them possesses the signs of irreversibility on the path of meditation. Alright, so it’s the clear realizations, the Bodhisattva with clear realizations that he is able to express in post meditation by way of having incorporated and therefore showing signs of having incorporated, these, eight, subsequent attainments that we’re talking about here. Profound. And so that’s the definition. You guys are gonna have to bear with me this evening because I’m having what you call a mare.
Nothing seems to be coming out right. Anyway, I’ll try again. The first definition that we have here is not actually a definition of a sign of irreversibility. It’s a definition of a person who has the signs of irreversibility. Okay, did you get that distinction?
Now, definition of a person who has the signs of irreversibility is a Bodhisattva abides in the clear realizations of meditative, of subsequent attainments or post meditation and particular is able to show through speech and body that he has incorporated the eight aspects of profundity that we have here. Does that make more sense? Marika? Okay. Now.
This one. Okay. And then I think that they didn’t cheat on the definition of the sign of irreversibility of bodhisattva on the path of meditation because they’re defining the sign in this one and that’s the same as the definition here. So that is a perfect proof that serves to convince that the bodhisattva on the path of meditation who possesses it is irreversible from highest complete enlightenment. Mhmm.
Mhmm. Mhmm. Okay. Alright. So then the divisions of these into the eight things that we’re talking about before are to be understood as the that which accords with these realizations of profundity in meditation.
So in meditation, you develop these realizations of profundity that we’re talking here, profound production, cessation, vastness, and so on. And in post meditation, have actions of body and speech that accord with those realizations. This can this this topic is gonna give me wrinkles. Okay. Mhmm.
Mhmm. So the reason that these these are eight signs of irreversibility happen at this level for those with dull capacities is that they at this stage, on this eighth level of the path of meditation, it’s not as if they are meditating on emptiness. They go into meditation on emptiness. They sit down and they focus on emptiness, and then they come out of their meditation on emptiness and they go off and do other things. And there’s like a a clear distinction between their meditation and their meditation time and their non meditation time.
So they could be meditating on emptiness in one moment and they’re not meditating on emptiness in the next moment. Yeah? So when they first realize emptiness, there’s this distinct period where they’re sitting down meditating on emptiness and then in other moments, they’re not meditating on emptiness. But when you become a Buddha, there is no distinction between the time when you’re meditating on emptiness and post meditation. There’s no distinction between meditation and post meditation.
So what happens as they get closer and closer to becoming a Buddha is that the distinction between meditation time and non meditation time becomes blurred. Yeah, so one moment they may be meditating, the next moment they’re not. One moment they may be meditating, the next moment they’re not. Right? So there’s many moments where they are meditating and then they can move backwards and forwards, right?
So then they still haven’t attained enlightenment but the distinction between their activities outside of meditation and their activities in meditation start to become similar. Yeah? And they become completely the same when they become a Buddha, but they’re not at that stage yet. There’s still a distinction between the two. It’s just that they’re less concrete than they had been at the beginning of the Bodhisattvas grounds.
So, abide in clear realizations very easily and also they have an unmistaken belief that they are going to become Buddha. They can see their Buddhahood coming about. Alright? So, this is one this is what they have signs for themselves of reaching enlightenment. And so they haven’t attained Buddhahood yet, but they see directly in in in in almost in every moment, says in many moments, their realization of Buddhahood.
Okay. So this idea of, like, in some moments, being in meditation and other moments not being in meditation and having post is what profound production is about. Right? So there’s some moments, so it says separate and former and latter moments of mind generation. So this mind generation here is another word for is another way that you can say bodhicitta, mind generation.
But here it’s probably ultimate bodhicitta. So it’s talking about the realization of emptiness and that it’s a simultaneous collection of many moments. So that you have one moment emptiness, one moment not emptiness, one moment emptiness. So that profound production is the is that it can happen and not happen, not happen, and happen, not happen, and happen. Right?
Yes? Mhmm. Okay. So, profound cessation. Profound cessation is actually and works on two levels.
There is ultimate understanding of profound cessation, and the ultimate aspect which is the profound aspect, I should say, and cessation. Now this cessation here refers to a very subtle understanding of impermanence, yeah? So that means that these beings realize that ultimately nothing arises and nothing ceases. Yes, and along with that ultimate realization that nothing arises and nothing ceases comes an understanding that even on a relative level, things are constantly changing. That there is constant cessation even on a relative level.
So even on a relative level as there is constant changing things constantly ceasing. Right? So it’s realizing the non cessation on an ultimate level because there’s no generation, and it’s recognizing momentariness on a relative level. So when you talk about momentariness, you’re talking about the subtlest level of impermanence. So you work through different levels of recognizing impermanence, gross impermanence, and this momentariness, this word momentariness refers to the subtlest level of impermanence.
Okay. I’m sorry about that. I kept saying forget it, you know, it doesn’t make sense to me, but it doesn’t have to I just have to translate and goes, no. What didn’t you understand? What don’t so I’m sorry if that was really boring, but you get to practice patience.
So the next one that is it comes up is the profound thusness. Now, as we’re going through these things, there’s two different aspects, right? We’re talking about the profound bit and then the other bit, right? So you have profound thusness, profound cessation, profound production. Now the profound always refers to emptiness, emptiness.
So it’s the emptiness of production, the emptiness of cessation, the emptiness of thusness. And then in some of these times, like with the emptiness of thusness, you’re talking about the emptiness of emptiness because thusness is emptiness. What these realizations are pointing to is that these beings have developed a profound understanding of the emptiness and so on that they’re meditating on. So that and not only have they done it, but there’s this phrase that keeps being repeated in Tibetan that isn’t repeated in here in these words. Says profound cessation, right?
Profound cessation. It says, It has entered into their heart. So profound production has entered into their heart. Profound cessation has entered into their heart or into their mind. Profound vastness has entered into their mind.
So we’re not just talking about recognition of it but an incorporation of it. So they’re incorporating the profundity of production, the profundity of cessation, the profundity of thusness. The profundity of thusness or profound thusness, the realization or the abiding in the and they say, they abide in the clear realization of profound thusness as opposed to recognizing at this level. Yeah? This one.
Do you minutes on me? Oh, yeah. Now, at this level, on the path of meditation, at this stage, they have recognizing thusness. It says they’ve developed a habit of recognizing thusness and they’re able to abide easily in that recognition of thusness. Yeah?
The reason that they do this however is because they have compassion for other beings. So they’re abiding in the thusness, their habit of recognizing or abiding in an understanding of profound thusness is motivated by trying to benefit others and is it for their own benefit. So if they’re doing something to benefit themselves, they wouldn’t have the eighth level realization of thusness. They would have a realization of thusness but there’s not this kind of realization of thusness. Not this abiding that has entered in and being, taken into heart or taken into mind so thoroughly.
Now, what I said to Geshe was, that was all fine. Could you please explain why you have a profound thusness and then the commentary is talking about compassion when there’s nothing in the word that says compassion and where did they pull that one from? Right? And he said, of course, it makes sense. It it has to be there.
There is a connection and I don’t understand what it is. And I was trying to figure out how to translate it because it doesn’t seem to be two things that are linked. And he said he said, you just don’t understand. That was one thing. And I said, yes, I do.
It says this, but I don’t understand why. And then anyway, but the thing that I was missing, that he explained very clearly in the end was that there cannot be any unlinking of working for others benefit and having this link, this of profound thusness. Right? Like I said, they’re not related. What you’re talking about one is ultimate reality and the other was relative reality.
Alright? Is a is a relative truth. The compassion and this idea of working for others is a relative truth. And the other two parts of it, the profoundness and the thusness are ultimate truth, how on earth are they linked? Yeah?
And he said that’s the whole point. That’s the whole point where they’ve commentated on it in this way is that there is no realization of profound thusness without being motivated by working for others, and you can’t unlink them. They’re totally connected. Number one. Uh-huh.
Uh-huh. So the next bit, which is a profound object of knowledge, recognizes or is talking about the way that the bodhisattvas on the eighth level have been able to thoroughly incorporate or thoroughly take into mind the understanding that although they may be performing objects of knowledge and now the objects of knowledge is the things like the six perfections. They may be practicing the six perfections. On the ultimate level, these things don’t exist. And so they recognize that these things exist relatively, but they also have taken it into their mind or they’re thoroughly, familiarized with the idea that these things don’t exist ultimately even while they’re doing them.
That they’re only relative truth. Okay. So next week, we have a little bit left to do, and then we’re going on to topic number nine, and we only have nine, ten, eleven. Okay. But let’s put it this way.
We’ve done this much Yeah. And we have this much left to do. Yes. I said, sir, we finished this, and then we don’t have to talk anymore. And I said, Sublime continue.
We were talking about finishing. He said, oh, we don’t have to do anything after that. We can you don’t have to talk anymore. And I said, but, yeah, but I think we’re studying the Sublime Continuum. And I asked the Sublime Continuum.
He goes, that could be fun. And I said, yeah, I’m little bit worried about it because I think we will argue more than usual. And then he said, why would you we argue more than usual? I said, Because I think it’s a definitive text and you would think it’s an interpretive text. And he goes, What makes you think I think it’s an interpretive text?
And I said, Because all the commentaries I’ve read by Gampopa say that it’s an interpretive text. And he said, I don’t think it’s an interpretive text. I can’t figure out if he’s just winding me up or not. And he said, I think that it is a text that you can read any way you want. So he said that if you were a Prāsaṇgika, you could read it from the perspective of a Prāsaṇgika, there’s commentaries written on it from the perspectives of a Prāsaṇgika.
If you were a Svatāntrika, you could read it from that perspective, and there’s commentaries written on it from that perspective. And there’s also commentaries written on it from the Cittamātra point of view. And I said, but again, I heard that there is talk about mind basis of all in the sublime continuum and you would say that only be talked about from the perspective of mind only. And he said yes, but you could interpret it in a different way and say it isn’t the mind basis of all, it’s actually another way of saying emptiness and still say that it was a Prāsaṇgika reading of the text. So we won’t argue.
I’ll just remain confused. Said, I I don’t know whether we’ll agree or not. I haven’t seen your tenets. And I said, I haven’t made up my own tenets. Okay.
And I suggest that the only he said, why why did you think that? And I said, because I read somewhere that, Lama Tsongkhapa had written a commentary, and he said that the sublime continuum was a definitive text and that the eighth Karmapa, had written a text and said that it was a no. The Tsongkhapa had said it was an interpretive text, and the eighth Karmapa said it was a a definitive text, and I thought Geshe-la and I translating on it, that’s going to be a problem. Right? Because we argue about anything anyway.
And Geshe-la said, oh, no. It’s not the actual text that is different. It’s certain words in it, so we’ll only argue some of the time. Can I ask this? Is it beside your robustness? Uh-huh.
Is it not that things are empty, but still appear? Okay. Geshe-la said that emptiness is being empty of inherent existence. So so if you say emptiness, you’re talking about that which appears as well. So there there are two different ways of saying the same thing.
So you can use one word for it. You can use another word for it, and they have it but it’s the same thing. So you know, if you’re saying emptiness, you’re not just talking about emptiness, not just empty. So you’re not just talking about an empty thing. You’re talking about the emptiness of the inherent existence.
Uh-uh. Uh-huh. So Geshe said if you’re looking at his computer and you can see green and yellow and blue and all sorts of colors, yeah, and they’re all appearing and they appear as if they’re there, but then you press the button and they’ll go and it’s gone. Right? And so he said, this is same computer, yeah, but you wanna know if you’re looking at the appearance and the other one, you’re looking at the the lack of something there.
But you can’t distinguish the the two things between. Yeah? So you it’s look it’s just looking at a different perspective of the same thing. Okay. So emptiness, the object is empty, the subject is empty.
Object Empty. Empty. Subject is empty. So so you you you you you’re Both is both are both are empty. Yeah.
So anything that exists is empty. So both. You don’t say it depends on one or it depends on the other? Both are empty. Yes.
Including the order of things. Principles. Yeah. Because Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
Yeah. Like, even karma isn’t is not inherently existent. So anything that isn’t empty doesn’t exist. Because Geshe-la said because we only see things what that that we the only things only exist because we label them thus. Yeah.
Because we say that’s a label. That’s that. Otherwise, if you did because he said if you didn’t come up with the idea of the order of things, there would be no order of things. It only exists as that label. So, yeah, both subject and object.
We don’t have horns. Horns. We don’t have. Yeah? They they are they are nonexistent.
Yeah? So, therefore, the horns of a person don’t have emptiness because they don’t exist. Did you guys see the thing on the computer with the rabbit with horns? Because you know how they keep saying? Like.
No. It wasn’t a rabbit? Can’t be. It’s got horns. No.
It was some, like, weird breed of rabbit that they had that had horns. Not a rabbit. I saw it on the computer. Someone email from this this story about a rare breed of rabbit with horns, and then the title to the email was there goes Buddhist logic. They said, yeah, anything with horns isn’t a rabbit.
But there’s not the scientists they said. Okay. So he thinks it must have been cross breeding. Okay. So you said it’s not his definition of a rabbit?
He had to say that Hanuman was a rabbit. Mhmm. Saying hare. Uh-huh. Well, hare is rabbit in Tibetan.
Uh-uh. Uh-uh. Said they have similar they rabbits and hares are same as they’re called both called rilong, but there’s other animals that are quite similar to them, and there’s about four or five different types. But none of them are rabbits either, so he understands your point. Yeah.
Okay. Thusness is an English translation of tathata. And it’s not because there’s no in Sanskrit. So it’s. Yeah.
Yeah, I made a mistake. It’s tathata. It’s not tathagata. Yeah. Tathata is yeah.
But that’s a weird one because they do Tathagatas to do it for both in Sanskrit, for emptiness and the Buddha. They do. Dasmas actually means emptiness. The wrong language. Uh-huh.
Uh-huh. Sorry. I made a mistake. Tathāgatagarbha is the essence. Tathāgata is one gone to And Tathāgatagarbha is the essence of one gone to thusness, which is Buddha nature and is sometimes synonymous synonymous with Tathata and sometimes not.
Tathata. No. Not in this tradition. Sometimes. I’m getting my languages mixed up.
Okay. Geshe-la said that he would say that Tathāgatagarbha is tathata. Tathāgatagarbha is tathata. Yeah? But tathata isn’t necessarily Tathāgatagarbha. That means thusness, Buddha nature is tathata but you wouldn’t say thusness is necessarily Buddha nature.
Mm-mm. Because there’s other things that are empty apart from the Buddha nature apart from the Buddha nature. Yeah. Tatata. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah. Thusness. Yeah. Emptiness.
Tatata is emptiness. Sorry. Because it’s difficult to say tatata, and I didn’t say it properly. Thusness. Yeah.
But it mean it’s the same because means the the person who. Is like the one who did or does. Yeah? The gata. And the tata means like a tata means it is.
Yeah? Das, das. And so you say tata ta, the ta means like that which is the ness. Yeah. The thusness.
It’s strange because in Hindi, to say this and that, one way of saying it would be this, this. No. That’s that’s that’s I’m not saying I’m saying But yeah. So it means and in Hindi. So it means and, like, it’s saying there is something else.
So this so it’s a pretty yeah. Tata is like and tatha tata is that which is. So thusness. The Tata at the end of things usually means. Yes, Yuru.
Every principle come every principle come from cause and effect. A developed version of cause and effect. So you’re talking about things from a relative perspective or an ultimate perspective? Because because ultimately, it’s emptiness, and there is no cause and effect. Yeah?