Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. The opening question — whether lay practice is disadvantaged compared to monastic life — sets the tone for this 123-minute session with Geshe Pema Tsering. His answer: ordination multiplies both merit and negativity through vows, but is not indispensable; bodhicitta and realization of emptiness are. The session then moves into the Lamrim section on relying on a spiritual teacher, examining a verse from the Ornament of the Sutras listing ten ideal lama qualities — discipline, concentration, wisdom, scriptural learning, realization of suchness, eloquence, compassion — with a wild-horse-and-bridle analogy for how vows train the mind. The disciple’s three required qualities (impartial, intelligent, diligent) follow, illustrated by a pointed example: the Chinese government’s failure to recognize the Dalai Lama’s genuine virtues, showing how a student’s own faults cause them to see fault in a qualified teacher.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 10 2008 04 17 BP.mp3
UUID: 36195693-2aa7-4aef-b240-686b1fe57a6c
Teacher: Geshe Pema Tsering
Collection: Lam Rim (Geshe Pema Tsering)
Date: 2008-04-17
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 123.5 minutes
Words: ~6,949
And listen to this to the teachings on on the Lamrim and study the teachings on Lamrim and then having studied and listened to the teachings, one one then practice them accordingly. And in this way, one aims at the goal of enlightenment for the sake of all those. Oh, yeah. And we start with the preliminary periods. On page four, is asking if you have any questions.
Minute ago. Oh, yeah. I have one like does how, like, predictive does, I guess, you are thinking practice as a layperson is versus I’m I’m not I’m not hearing you well. I’m saying practicing as a layperson as opposed to practicing as a monk. You know how disadvantages one?
Disadvantages. So Geshe-la la is saying, well, there is I just asked what is the difference in terms of benefit of between a lay practitioner and the an ordained practitioner. Geshe-la wasn’t saying, well, there is a difference. The person who is ordained has taken vows and by the force of having taken those vows and keeping those vows whatever virtue that that person practices is the power of the virtue is increased by those vows that are being kept whilst the lay practitioner does not have the vows that the ordained person is keeping. The ordained person keeps very many vows.
So there is this difference. So still, the lay practitioner engages in virtue and still produces benefits, but not as the virtues the merit that is created is not going to be as powerful as the merit of an ordained person. Also says that person, that ordained person, also when that person engages in negativity also the negativity is going to be greater than that of a lay person because negativity is contradicting a vow that has been taken, something that has been vowed against. And and so then also, the negativity will be greater than that of a lay person who does not have the vows. Again, both ways, virtues will be greater and the negativities will be greater for the person who has taken vows for the for the for the ordained person than, than for the lay person.
This difference is comes about in dependence on the having taken the vows on the taking of vows. Is that okay? Yeah. That help? Yeah.
Definitely. I as well. I’ll ask this about can ask him more of his opinion. But Say that again? I was gonna ask him more of an opinion, but it’s probably I should let somebody else.
I was just, like, wondering if he thinks it should be the logical endpoint of any a path in this life or whether it’s something I really thought that question through very much. I’m not sure if I understood. Like, I’m sort of wondering to see the the transition from a lay practitioner towards, you know, being a monk, is that should that be the logical endpoint of everybody in this life? Is that is that what we all should be aiming at? Is that what self explanatory, isn’t it?
I don’t know. Not to me. How can I put that as a conclusion? As a logical conclusion. How can I express that?
So then and and and I have heard, yes, shall I give this this advice to many people, which is absolutely reasonable, the most reasonable thing to do. Because I said even though the thought occurs to you that you should become a monk or for any of you, monk or nun, you shouldn’t you shouldn’t immediately or get ordained straight away, Geshe-la says, because, Geshe-la says, you should you should think about it, investigate, analyze the whole thing seriously and honestly for a few years, for one, two, or three years, or how many years it takes. Because once you take up the vows, then giving them up, it’s a great fault it’s a very big responsibility that’s what it means So, Geshe-la has been saying, again, it is not absolutely necessary that it is alright to practice as a layperson. We still can produce very great virtues. We can accomplish very great virtues.
And by training our minds in bodhicitta, in the mind of enlightenment, if we practice this training well, we train our minds well and accomplish that, then the virtue that we will create by doing so will be greater than the virtue of any monk or nun who is keeping their vows but is not meditating on bodhicitta. And Geshe-la says in order to accomplish enlightenment, in order to accomplish enlightenment, one does not necessarily have to become a monk or nun. Okay? How can I translate that? All the the perfect conditions.
Okay. So I guess I wasn’t saying that the the the the being a monk or a or or a nun, guess I would suggest just in in striving to attain enlightenment, be becoming a monk or or a nun just creates those perfect conditions for the attainment of enlightenment. Is that correct? Yeah. But it’s not indispensable.
Indispensable. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Oh, indispensable.
Does that help? No. Good. That was gonna be my next question was do you have to be to obtain one and then Bodhisattva? Yeah.
Yeah. So, Geshe-la was saying, again, the the vows or or becoming a monk or nun is not indispensable. It is is it is not something that you cannot go without. What what you cannot go without is bodhicitta and realization of emptiness. That’s what you cannot go without.
This is these two are indispensable. Saying right now, I guess I’m saying, in order to attain enlightenment, need to train our minds in bodhicitta a very great deal. And also, have to train our minds in realization of emptiness, in the understanding of emptiness. And even if we cannot fully realize these two, at the very least, we have to ascertain a a very consistent and solid understanding of what they are. Okay?
Is that okay? Yeah? Yeah. That was good. Here we go.
So then we start with the next main topic of the text explanation of the stages by which students of the actual instructions should be guided, and then this has two main parts: the root of the path, which is how to rely on a spiritual teacher, and then the stages of how to train the mind once you have once you start relying on the teacher. And then, as for the first one of those topics, the root of the path how to rely on spiritual teacher has again two major divisions: the elaborate explanation for generating certainty, and the condensed presentation of how to sustain that. And so then, again, as for the the elaborate explanation for generating certainty, it again has two parts, the need for relying on a spiritual master since all good qualities depend on him, and and the actual way to rely on him. So then again, him or her. Then the need for relying on a spiritual master since all good qualities depend on the teacher, on the master, as all goodness starting off from the development of single positive quality and the decrease of a single negativity or a fault in the mind of the disciple has its root in the sublime friend, in the spiritual friend, then the way to rely on the spiritual friend is important in the very beginning.
And, Geshe-la, to to that, says the obvious. It’s just extremely important that we, on the very start, rely on a spiritual friend, Geshe-la says it is important to rely on the spiritual friend because every single good quality arises is developed in dependence on the spiritual teacher and every single fault again is is is arrested in dependence on the spiritual friend so whatever the vehicle one is is engaging in all the good qualities of that vehicle in the case of the Mahāyāna vehicle the good qualities of the the Mahāyāna vehicle depend on the spiritual friend. Again, all the faults are erased, are are rid of, on dependence on the spiritual friend. And, again, said Geshe-la says, you know, in this in this is the case we can see because this in every activity, even worldly activities, we we always depend on someone in order to accomplish any endeavor that engage in. And Geshe-la was saying.
Again, even worldly activities, mundane activities, we depend on teachers in order to be to gain the knowledge and and the skills to accomplish these activities. We have we have relied on our parents in order to learn many skills to be able to accomplish many of our worldly activities. And, again, in the in the the Mahāyāna path, again, we need somebody who has accomplished, who has trodden the Mahāyāna path so we can learn also then as for the actual way to rely on him so the the the elaborate explanation generating certainty the need for relying on the spiritual master since all good qualities depend on him. So the first topic that we just approached. And then now the actual way to rely on him.
This has six parts: the characteristics of the one to be relied on, the virtuous spiritual friend, the characteristics of the one who relies on the on the spiritual friend, which is the the disciple, the way the disciple relies on the teacher, the benefits of reliance, the drawbacks of not relying, and the summary of the meaning. Again, as for the first one of those six topics, the characteristics of the one to be relied on, the virtuous spiritual friend has two parts: identification of a lama and the characteristics of the lama. So then what are the characteristics of the lama? What are what’s what makes a lama? And, again, you know, one shouldn’t rely on just anybody, because I wasn’t saying anybody who misbehaves or or so forth.
So then identifying a lama, the identification of a lama, although generally speaking, in terms of the indivitsul triml vehicles, a lot is said about the topic in the buddha’s teachings and the many commentaries, and again Geshe-la just stopped there and says there are many teachings the Buddha Śākyamūni has given many teachings, and there has been many commentaries written on those teachings by Indian scholars and Tibetan scholars. Here only a virtuous spiritual teacher who guides one on the path of buddhahood, the Mahāyāna, by gradually guiding on the path of the three types of beings will be presented. So then, again, the as for the characteristics of the guru we have the the highest characteristics the middling characteristics and the and the minimum characteristics and Geshe-la was saying so again here in the context of the of the of of the three different types of teacher those which are the most exalted ones and then if one cannot find such an exalted teacher in the place where one lives then again a middling one with middling characteristics again is presented and again if those are also rare where one lives then again there are those teachers with minimum characteristics presented or taught here in the text and again Geshe-la was saying in the context of these teachings or these practices or these paths on the lamrim again what we need is somebody who is versed in this in the path of the three types of beings of small, middling, and greater scope.
And, again, as for the first one of those, the highest characteristics, the good qualities that he himself needs. And in the ornament of the sutras, it says that a disciple needs to rely on the spirit of the teacher endowed with the ten properties, and then we read that verse from the ornament of sutras. So then Geshe-la was reading the root verse, and then the the spiritual teacher was discipline, calm, and complete peace, moral qualities, with effort, rich in scriptures, who has thoroughly realized suchness, is eloquent, loving, and never disheartened on that one one should rely. And then the very first line of the verse, which in the Tibetan is a very succinct, it’s a very small line, so then the virtuous spiritual friend, and we have the words dua, which is translated as discipline or vinaya so then the training morality as I was explaining then chi which is a peace and Geshe-la was saying again the calm the peace having pacified one’s mind through concentration the training concentration and again Geshe-la was, again, having accomplished the training in wisdom. So somebody who has accomplished the trainings.
Okay? And then also in the second line of the verse, we have somebody with more qualities, more qualities than oneself, more qualities than than the student. And then, again, somebody with effort. Without effort, then, again, he won’t practice and teach. So somebody with effort and somebody who is rich in the scripture, somebody who is versed in the three baskets of teachings.
And then again when somebody who has thoroughly realized suchness, who has realized emptiness, the selflessness of the person, the selflessness of phenomena and somebody who is eloquent, who is somebody who is a scholar And then, again, somebody who is loving, and Geshe-la was explaining that as referring again, somebody who is kind, somebody because if the person if the teacher is not loving, he’s not kind, then he won’t he won’t teach you or he won’t teach very well. And, again, somebody who never never gets discouraged or disheartened, whatever whatever the circumstances. Again, furthermore, it says that someone who has not disciplined himself or herself is not in a position to discipline someone else. So then a spiritual master who disciplines others has to be someone who has first discipline his or her own mind. So then, Geshe-la, I was going through the text.
You may Well, then in what in what way must one discipline it? There’s an expression here which is difficult to translate: having accomplished whatever occurs to you, to label it as a quality realization due to existing in the mind is of no benefit. And Geshe-la was the same. Just realizing whatever good qualities that occurs to you in any way that it occurs is not enough. One has to rely on the foundation of the teachings of the Buddha, which are the teachings on actions and the results.
Is that correct, Geshe-la? One has to rely on the foundation, which are So then not just any qualities, but those qualities which pertain to the three trainings and how do you say in conformity results, which do not contradict the teachings on actions and the results. And if one develops practices and in dependence on this, then one will develop the actual good qualities, the actual So this is why a system of mental discipline compatible with the general teachings of the conquerors is necessary. And this has been ascertained to be the three precious trainings, and therefore the three ethical discipline and so forth have been set forth. And in this regard, discipline or ethical discipline refers to the training discipline refers to the to the training and ethical discipline.
And, again, from the from that sūtra on the vows of individual liberation, individual liberation is a how do I spell how do I pronounce this word? Bridal. Bridal. Individual liberation is a bridle with a hundred sharp nails that accords with the horse of the mind, hard to steer, that always strays, will flee away. And then, Geshe was going back to that verse.
In the very first line of the verse Geshe-la was explaining, it makes reference to our by constantly applying effort to the practice we cross beyond suffering. There’s a very small verse which Geshe-la explained in this way. Then Geshe-la was explaining the analogy of the horse, the untamed horse, on which we put the bridle in. In Geshe-la’s analogy, you saw the bridle on the mouth of the horse and everything, and then we tame the horse with that. So then we are the wild horses, and then the bridle are the vows of individual liberation.
So we take those vows to train ourselves. in dependence on on on having been tamed with these vows, with this bridle, which are the vows of individual liberation, we develop the good qualities of concentration and wisdom of the they come about on the training concentration and wisdom. And again, just like someone skilled in breaking in wild horses tames them by means of a good bridle, someone trained in ethical discipline which subjugates the sense powers that pursue wrong objects like a wild horse, again, and the engagement in inappropriate activities, and which, through many efforts, makes one engaged in what ought to be done, has tamed the horse, the wild horse of the mind. And then we read the next first part of the next paragraph calm or pacified means having developed the training of concentration where based on mindfulness and introspection with regards to with regards to engaging positive and contracting unwholesome behavior, the mind abides in a state of inner calm. So again Geshe-la was explaining the Tibetan words which translate as a positive wholesome actions and unwholesome actions.
And then one engages properly in unwholesome actions and avoids unwholesome actions by observing, watching out through mindfulness and introspection, mindfulness and guarding alertness. Those are the two mental factors which Geshe lah was saying watch one’s mind and one’s conduct and then sees if negativities are coming about or not, virtuous minds or virtuous behaviors coming about or not and non virtuous alike. And in this way, one one trains oneself and and accomplishes concentration on that basis. Means that based on calm abiding, on having attained the state of calm abiding of a serviceable mind, training is the training on on of the wisdom that has been developed through individual analysis on the correct meaning of reality. And Geshe-la was explaining that has to do with the specialness of the training and special insight.
Developed calm abiding in training and special insight. Then, however, it is not enough merely to have developed by means of the three trainings in this manner the corpus of realization that acts to adorn the mind, as the corpus of scriptural knowledge is also needed, as we see in the text. The text then tells us, rich in scriptures, meaning that the three collections and so forth, the three baskets of the teaching and so forth, have been studied extensively. And Geshe lah is explaining what Karasadh, this the three collections or the three baskets, the three collections of teachings, and then we have the Vinaya, the sutras, and the Abhidharma teachings. So then the Vinaya teachings, Vinaya scriptures mainly teach us the training on ethical discipline, then the sutras mainly teach us the training on concentration, and the Abhidharma scriptures mainly teach us the the training in wisdom.
And then again, we read a quote from Geshe Dromtonpa, which says for someone to be called a Mahāyāna guru when he or she explains, he or she must generate boundless understanding, and when he or she practices, he or she must show what is of benefit and direct significance in the last days of the teachings. So then again, when practicing, when engaging in virtue and then expounding the teachings, whatever teachings there may be, impermanence, compassion, bodhisattva, and so forth, then again, Geshe-la was saying, the teacher has to, with a benevolent mind, with benevolent attitude, try to make endeavors in creating in the student, in the disciple the same good qualities that he or she has developed in his or her mind stream. And then having realized suchness is what is is in the root verse. In the root verse, having realized suchness refers to the special training in wisdom, the realization of the selflessness of phenomena. Alternatively, then, it is mainly held to be manifest suchness or manifest suchness.
However, even if this is not present, it is said that this criterion is also fulfilled by realization through scriptures and reasoning. So, even if he or she possesses spiritual knowledge, scriptural knowledge and realizations, it is not enough for them to be inferior or or equal to those of the disciple or the student. Therefore, someone with more qualities than the student is needed. And, again, we read from the collection of verses. Again, people rely on someone in fear wither.
Those relying on one of their peers or someone equal, then stay the same, remain the same. Those relying on someone greater than achieve excellence. Therefore, rely on those ahead of you. And, again, Geshe-la was saying, if one is relying on a teacher with inferior qualities and understanding, then, again, once qualities and understanding will deteriorate, degenerate. Again, if one is relying on someone with the same qualities and understanding, equal qualities and understanding, one will remain the same.
And again, if one is relying on somebody with greater qualities and understanding and realization and so forth, one grow in excellence. And again, someone endowed with discipline, with perfect peace, and the most exalted wisdom, if you rely on any such great being and any such lord, you even end up ahead of of him or her. And again, have a quote from Geshe Potowa, which says, as I listen to the accounts, to the biographies the saints, of the of the holy beings, I look up to them. So, again, having having seen how they practice, having learned how they have lived their lives and practice, then one, he he looks up to them. And again another Geshe, Tashi says I take the old man at Zhaojang as my model accordingly we need someone with more qualities as a model to look up to and Geshe-la said just the same thing in a colloquial way, again, that we explained in the the old practitioners of Radreng, and then they they are taken as a model by Geshe Tashi.
And, again, we have to do the same. And, again, those six properties, those six characteristics or qualities like this are qualities that you yourself attain for your own welfare. And was quoting the qualities, the spirit of the three trainings, the qualities, the spirit of the three trainings and more qualities, effort, richness in scriptures, and so forth. And again, we go to the next topic, which is a positive quality necessary for the welfare of others. And the remaining ones are qualities for the sake of the benefit of others, of benefiting others.
And we read, as they say, the capable ones do not wash away evil with water. They do not remove the suffering of beings by hand, with their hands. They do not graft, they do not transfer the realizations on others. They liberate by teaching the truth the truth of the nature of reality. And, again, going back to the beginning of the verse explaining the all the the able ones, the capable ones, which are the the the Buddhas.
Again, they do not wash away the negativities of of of people’s bodies or whatever illness or or pains or sufferings of body, speech, and mind. They do not they cannot wash wash it away with water. And, again, they cannot remove the suffering of beings with their hands. They cannot clear away the sufferings of beings with their hands. I guess, that was then saying that if if they could do that, then then they would have done that already to all of us, and we wouldn’t be we wouldn’t have any sufferings if we would all be enlightened already.
Again, in the same way, again, they cannot transfer, they cannot give to us their qualities and their realizations. And again, in the same line of thought, if they could, we would already be enlightened. So what is it that they do for our sake? They teach us the Dharma they teach us the teachings on the nature of reality then, Geshe lah explains, so they teach us, they give us teachings on the nature of reality, they give us teachings on de zhin nyid, which is what’s translated here, is the nature of reality, which Geshe lah explains again is the same as tong pa nyid which is emptiness so then they teach us they give us teachings on emptiness we develop a realization of emptiness and having realized emptiness having endowed ourselves with that mind that realizes emptiness, we rid ourselves of every and any other incorrect or wrong mind and then we develop all correct minds and then by increasing those increasing those virtuous minds, but those those correct minds, then we and and eventually bringing them to perfection, and, eventually, we attain Buddhahood itself. And Geshe lais explained the very last line of the Tibetan verse, which is and then makes reference to their teaching us emptiness, ultimate reality, and then the Geshe-la was explaining the conventional truth and relative conventional truth.
So they teach us the two truths, the ultimate and conventional truth. Again, as it is expressed here, apart from taking care of others through teaching them the path in an unmistaken manner, nothing can be done such as washing away the negativities with water and so forth. And, again, amongst amongst the four characteristics regarding these, again, these these four qualities for for accomplishing the welfare of others, again, eloquent means experience with regard to the stages of guidance and skill in getting the meaning across to the minds of those to be tamed, to the minds of the students, the disciples, And, again, loving, and the the quality of of being loving, which is, again, in the reverse, We see, I guess, life explains, means having a pure motivation to teach the Dharma and teaching motivated by compassion without any regard for material gain and or fame or respect and such things. So, just Geshe-la explains teaching, but we have a good motivation, motivation of the mind of enlightenment or the motivation of compassion and so forth, and then giving the teachings away. And then we need someone like Potowa who said it to The son of referring to this person, however many explanations of the Dharma I have given, not once have I claimed the approval or fame or respect as my own.
There is no migrating being who I do not feel pity for. And then as for energetic, what is referred in the in the root verse as energetic or endowed with effort, means constantly delighting in the welfare of others. Constantly delighting in the welfare of others. Never disheartened again means not to become weary due to explaining things over and over again, but rather to bear the hardships of explaining time and again. And again, as for the middling characteristics of a lama, Potowa said the three trainings: the realization of suchness and a loving heart. These five qualities then are the main ones.
My master, Shom Chu, is not very learned in all, and since he cannot bear disenchantment, he does not impress on his mind the kindness he receives. However, as he has the above mentioned five qualities, whoever is in his presence benefits. And again, Nyen-ton is by no means eloquent, and each time he makes a dedication, the only thing he knows is that nobody understood anything. But as he has those five qualities, those who are near him benefit. So, again, just saying that those who have those those five qualities, if you are in the presence of someone with those five qualities, you benefit.
So then, basically, we have gone through the exalted lamas, the exalted teachers, exalted ones, the greatest ones, they have the ten qualities that we have gone through. And now the middling ones, the average lama would have these five qualities. And now we are going to approach some somebody a a teacher with the minimum requirements or the minimum characteristics. So then somebody with the minimum characteristics, the actual minimum characteristics, and we are told that even if due to the times, it is difficult to find someone who has a complete set of such characteristics, as have been explained before. It is said that you should not rely on anyone whose faults and faults and shortcomings are greater than the good qualities or whose faults and positive qualities are equal.
But on someone whose positive qualities qualities exceed his or her faults. Of association with the characteristics such as spiritual master who brings about complete liberation and enlightenment is a perpetual root of aspiration. Therefore, those who wish to rely on a spiritual teacher should be aware of and make an effort to look for someone who possesses those characteristics. Those wishing to have disciples rely on them also should strive to acquire these characteristics. So then, again, one one should look for a teacher who has either those ten qualities or the five qualities, if one cannot find someone with all the ten qualities or those five qualities, or if not even that, then at least somebody who has more qualities than oneself.
And Geshe-la was saying that this is already difficult enough because one has to in order to understand or to know if somebody has those characteristics, those qualities or not, one has to know what those qualities are, what those characteristics are, and then one has to look and see if if if people have or do not have those qualities. Investigate. So then, this answer is is very difficult, but at the very least, we should look for someone who has more qualities than we have, somebody who has more qualities derived out of having practiced more, having more experience in in spiritual practice than we do somebody with more listening or more study than we have such person we we should at least at least at least in such a person we should rely on those Yes. Okay. Do do you want some more?
Yeah. Yeah. And we read the next topic, which is the characteristics of the one who relies on the teacher, which is the disciple. First of all, this has four parts, and then the first part is a false of someone who does not have, and then benefits of someone who does have the five characteristics. According to the four hundred stanzas, one of the verses of the four hundred stanzas of says, one who is impartial, intelligent, and endeavors.
Thus, is explained a vessel for the teachings. Otherwise, qualities of the teacher have no effect in the listener. In the listener, there there will be no change. And, again, I was just going back to the beginning of the verse and explaining those those literary words in terms of in a colloquial manner. Again, one who is impartial, one who is intelligent and is able to analyze and investigate what is being said, who is able to listen to the teachings and analyze what what the teacher is saying and and contemplate what the teacher is saying.
And then one who who endeavors, one who makes effort, who strives, And, again, the second half of the verse, Geshe-la was just saying, if somebody if the disciple of the student has those three qualities, then then when in the presence of a teacher, that person will benefit. If this if the person the the disciple or the student does not have those three qualities, then it doesn’t doesn’t matter how how many qualities the teacher has, then the student won’t benefit. So then as as as it says in the commentary, someone endowed with the three characteristics is a suitable vessel for listening. If all three are complete, the positive qualities of the one who is expounding, the teacher of the Dharma, appears as positive qualities and do not appear as faults. Not only that, the positive qualities of the listeners also appear as positive qualities to that person, and do not appear as faults.
If the characteristics of a vessel are not complete, if those three qualities are not present, then the listener, under the power of his faults, his or her faults, classify even a perfectly pure and great spiritual teacher who expounds the Dharma among those who have faults, and perceive an exponent’s qualities as faults. And then give you an illustration. He’s giving an example of such a case. For example, take the Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama says in public that he does not wish for Tibet’s freedom.
He wishes for cultural and religious autonomy. But the Chinese, they do not understand that. They do not see it that way. The Chinese say that he’s saying that, but in the future they are going to rebel. They’re going to try to get their freedom through by by what he’s saying.
So they keep on saying faults. Even though even though there is no faults from the side of the Dalai Lama, the Chinese keep on saying faults superimposing faults on the Dalai Lama. And Geshe-la was saying not not only the government, the Chinese government, but also many, many Chinese people. Even though the Dalai Lama is not wishing for Tibet’s freedom is good, they do not see that. They do not see that as something good.
See as they still perceive fault in the Dalai Lama. Oh, yeah. And you said that was then is then saying that you certainly have some questions now. So if a person is unable to take in the teachings because of, like, a mental illness, you know, a And then let me let me just say how how I translated that in Tibetan. Same somebody somebody who does not have a stable mind or a balanced mind or somebody who has a mental illness that’s what I said if the person cannot understand what is being said, then, yes, he’s the person is classified as somebody who is not intelligent, who who wouldn’t wouldn’t have the who wouldn’t fulfill the criteria.
So that person, Geshe-la was saying, first Geshe-la said that person is not able to retain the teaching, so the person won’t benefit. But generally speaking, the person would derive some benefit from listening to the teachings, but because the person cannot retain it, as I was saying, the person would not be able to accomplish the benefits of having listened, having studied the teachings, then contemplating the teachings, or meditating upon the teachings, so there some benefit to be derived thus. So then there is some benefit. A little benefit that the person at least got the imprint or having listened to the teachings. Anything else?
Yes? How did Ishida find his teachers? Did they all come automatically the monasteries? Did they come automatically through the monasteries? He said that wherever he went, there was a lama.
So then at first, Geshe-la says his uncle in his home land who was teaching him the alphabet and so forth he arranged for him to become student of Khensur Rinpoche. Uncle arranged for Geshe to be to become a student of Khensur Rinpoche. And then having become a student of Khensur Rinpoche, Khensur Rinpoche would tell him to go and obtain teachings from the Dalai Lama and other Lamas, and then he would just follow instructions. Yes. Yes.
Was saying, at first, he wouldn’t he wouldn’t know anything at all, so the or anyone. He he his his uncle was looking after him. Is that okay? Hero? Yeah.
What’s the reason to recognize something we haven’t experienced? For example, in the Chinese people regarding to the that’s what that’s the reason I them to us to recognize something we haven’t experienced. How can we recognize? How can we recognize something that we have not experienced? I don’t know.
I am not don’t I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. Maybe. Yeah. That’s right. K.
The Chinese don’t recognize his holiness, his qualities. And I think he’s saying that they’re beyond because they’ve not experienced it, how can they recognize because they haven’t the Chinese haven’t experienced it themselves. Yes. How can they see that in the Dalai Lama? How can they see it?
Let me try that. Yes. Yeah? Let me try that. How is that?
Sorry? So then Geshe-la is saying first, Geshe-la started saying, look. This is very difficult. And Geshe-la was quoting. It was it was a a saying, which I haven’t heard before.
But can you can you translate the saying in yourself? I can translate the meaning of it, but I wouldn’t be able to translate the same. Scholar to know a scholar, or it takes a learned one to know a learned one. Takes an intelligent person to know an intelligent person. Those who are stupid or ignorant cannot recognize an intelligent person.
Geshe-la was saying: It is just like it is said in these teachings, in the verses. It takes somebody with those three qualities in order to be able to recognize the good qualities in others. If those three qualities are not present, then one will see faults. You remember those three qualities in the teaching? Somebody who is impartial, intelligent, and who strives, makes effort.
So, again, that’s what the teaching was saying. It takes these three in order to be able to appreciate the qualities of others. If one does not have these three in one see faults and others instead. And so if one has those three qualities, Geshe-la says that one will benefit or benefit will accrue, benefit will follow. It’s not necessarily the case that one will see all the good qualities of of of the teacher or whoever the the person in question is, but the benefit will follow.
Turn this one. Is that okay? Oh, yeah. I I didn’t understand, you know, what it meant to say that the spiritual teacher had totally realized suchness. I know you I know you shouldn’t realize shouldn’t explain it, but I didn’t I didn’t understand what what that meant.
I didn’t understand what the words meant. Thoroughly realizing suchness. I was just really just looking for some further elaboration on on what that means. Thoroughly Where is it? Then suchness, suchness, is is the same as emptiness.
And thoroughly realizing is is is is correctly and properly realizing it, having a realization of emptiness. Does that suffice? Yeah. Yeah. No.
That’s a difficult That is why. That is why. Yeah. This is the same. To us.
Any more questions? So then it is not the same thing. Attachment is something that it comes out of a distorted motivation, of a wrong motivation, and then with the wrong motivation one develops attachment. Reliance on the teacher is something understood that one needs to develop certain good qualities, spiritual qualities or whatever, then one relies on the knowledge and experience of someone who has those qualities to be able to develop those qualities in oneself, and it is not the same thing. Far from that.
So then attachment again is having having how how can I translate that in English? An incorrect So, Geshe, that is gonna say so then one one attachment is arise out out of a distorted of a motivation, which which superimposes qualities to to what doesn’t to what does not have those qualities. And then on the other hand, have something like actually seeing the real qualities on a teacher, the actual qualities that a teacher does have, then liking those qualities, then that is faith. There’s another mental factor. So one is seeing something that is not there.
It’s a distorted mind that is seeing something which is not there, which is attachment. The other one is seeing something which is there. So both minds, Geshe-la was then giving the example of the Dalai Lama. There are those people who like the Dalai Lama and want him to like them. Then this is attachment.
And then there are other who actually see the very good qualities of the Dalai Lama and they like those qualities, but those qualities are real and that is faith. So both minds have a quality of liking but they have a fundamental difference in in the in the very beginning of of their production or their arising. Geshe-la was saying just the same thing again. Both minds do like the lama, but one, because it arrives out of a wrong motivation, of distorted motivation, then again, it comes it comes to be called attachment and and a afflictive emotion or delusion. And the other one because it is a correct motivation and the beginning of its horizon again is is faith.
It comes to be called faith. Is that okay, Geshe-la? Yeah. What? Oh, yeah.
Is that okay? Yeah? Can I just is there time for one more question? Last question. Yes.
Yeah. Just in relation to someone who’s thoroughly realized suchness, am I correct in understanding that that also means they’ve achieved bodhicitta? That is not necessarily There are many there are many beings who have realized emptiness, but have not realized bodhicitta, have not realized the mind of enlightenment. So there are the hearer foe-destroyer, the solitary realizer foe-destroyer those on the path of seeing meditation and so forth there are many beings who have realized emptiness but have not necessarily realized bodhicitta and there are also those ordinary beings who have realized bodhicitta but have not realized emptiness. Is that so?.
Yeah. Is that okay? That’s what yeah? Yeah. Yeah.
Is that okay? Yeah.