Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Milk poured into water cannot be separated — Geshe Pema Tsering uses this image to explain the learner’s union, great bliss inseparably joined with the realization of emptiness. In this 100-minute session from his Grounds and Paths series, he works through an advanced Highest Yoga Tantra commentary on the third and fourth empowerments: how a bodhisattva on the tenth ground causes the winds to dissolve in stages until the ultimate clear light arises and the pure illusion body emerges. He then traces a doctrinal debate over whether the proximate causes of the ultimate clear light fall under the third or fourth stage — a question the text’s author admits he cannot resolve. A closing exchange distinguishes mantra-vehicle grounds and paths from those of the sūtra vehicle: same terms, subtler minds, different objects of abandonment. For serious practitioners already familiar with Highest Yoga Tantra.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 37 2006 07 21 G and P.mp3
UUID: df33cb2d-b6a1-4263-91a1-2348e7d160aa
Teacher: Geshe Pema Tsering
Collection: Grounds & Paths (Geshe Pema Tsering)
Date: 2006-07-21
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 100.7 minutes
Words: ~5,912
So so then Geshe-la is then instructing us to give rise to a good motivation and then wishing that may all sentient beings attain enlightenment. And in order to accomplish that, we are now going to study the grounds and paths of sacred mantra and then having acquired knowledge of the grounds and paths of sacred mantra, going to we are going to practice it and then and then give rise to the to the thought that may we attain enlightenment in this very life. So then Geshe-la, then from where we go on, Geshe-la was going to explain. So then previously, we were talking about the third empowerment and then the fourth empowerment and the union that follows after that. And then so then the text goes on to say, so then as for this way to explain, how to say, from the explanation of the two analyses by Kedrup Je, there is a way of explaining it, which is in this harmony with what was expounded before, okay?
Okay? So then it goes on like this. So then Bodhisattva, who is on his last life, and then Geshe-la was then stopped there and then he started to say, so then a bodhisattva in his last life is a bodhisattva on the tenth ground. And then after that, he won’t have to take he’s he’s he will attain enlightenment in that life, so he won’t have to take rebirth He won’t have to take rebirth again. So that is his last last life.
So then on his last life, then at the time of attaining the actual third empowerment, or actually attaining the third empowerment, then relying, whilst relying on a seal. And then I know that the English text makes reference to an action seal, while the Tibetan text only uses the word for seal and then Geshe-la says, Geshe-la was saying that it could be either a wisdom seal or an action seal. So then whilst relying on a seal, then he’s able he has the ability and the capacity then to give rise to a completely or fully characterized great bliss. And then because he has then having realized directly realized having already directly realized emptiness and that emptiness that realization not having deteriorated, this he is already endowed with that and that realization has not deteriorated. Then at the time of the third empowerment then of the actual third empowerment, then at that time, how to say, together with the seal and life force and the practice of life force exertion, then on that basis, and the text stops there, the text stops there on the text and he’s going to keep on reading now.
And then so then at the time of the actual third empowerment or the time of actual bestowal of third empowerment, and at that time, was relying on a seal and on life force having practiced life force exertion. And then on that basis, then the winds then on stages then dissolve, how to say, then the how to say, the three emptinesses of the dissolution of the winds then arise in stages. Then at the time of the fourth emptiness, then how to say that Bodhisattva then realizes directly realizes how to say that emptiness by the wisdom of great bliss. Okay? And then Geshe-la was continuing.
And that wisdom, that primordial wisdom is the actual or ultimate clear light. No, no, no. The wisdom wisdom of great bliss. The wisdom of great bliss. Pardon?
Actual clear Actual clear light. Ultimate clear light. Yeah. So then I was asking Geshe-la with respect to that wisdom of great bliss. So then that Bodhisattva in his last life, he already has a stable realization of emptiness.
And then he has the ability, he’s able to give rise to that wisdom of great bliss. And then with the third empowerment, he then is able to give rise to that wisdom of of of great bliss, that primordial wisdom of great bliss. And then with that, he realizes the ultimate clear light, and then he can give rise to the pure illusion body. Okay? So then the text goes on and then goes on to say then at the time of the empowerment, then before the ultimate clear light or how to say, preceding the ultimate clear light, then the instructions on transference and so forth, they are bestowed.
Having been bestowed, then by means by the power of transference and other practices, then at the time of the empowerment, that one then arises from that clear light in the reverse order. And then at that time, then Geshe-la was explaining. Explaining. So then before the empowerment and instructions are given on what is going to happen, how is one to transfer from one stage to another, how is this that one is going to, how to say, accomplish the union and so forth. So then all those uncommon instructions of Highest Yoga Tantra are then bestowed.
And then Geshe-la then goes on to explain that at the time of the clear light, when we’re about the clear light, then the yogi, the practitioner is on meditative stabilization on clear light. But then as the text makes reference here, so then one then emerges or arises from that clear light in the reverse order. So then Geshe-la at this point explains, so then because the time of clear light, the yogi is on meditative stabilization on the clear light, then one has to to arise. And then so then and then how to say, then one accomplishes the body of union, which is made from that very subtle wind and mind and a body which is fully adorned with the major and minor marks of a Buddha. It has all these characteristics.
Then one emerges in such a way. So then Geshe-la was then explaining so then this extremely subtle wind and mind. So again, the extremely subtle wind is the is the wind of the ultimate which is the mount of the ultimate clear light mind. And then and and and and the mind itself is the mind of ultimate clear light. So then one then emerges as the as as the deity, as the as the the being in union with with a divine embrace, with a consort, and with the all the marks of of a Buddha.
And Geshe-la was then saying, so then this is then the the pure the pure illusion body. Okay? Stated. And then that clear light of the time of the empowerment, then that is the ultimate clear light. And then from that, the body from that one, it is explained that one emerges one emerges from that in the body of union.
So then and then I was asking, so as as as as what was such as the body of union, what what is the meaning of that? And then I was explaining. So then that is there’s then body of union, learners, the learners union. So learners union. And then at the time, Geshe-la was then briefly mentioning that at the time then when it abandons the emotions.
It’s the time of abandoning the emotions. Okay? And then in the Sunlight Clarifying the Profound Meaning, that text also states something which is in harmony with with this explanation, which was this which which was just given. Okay? So then also in the in the in the So then also the illuminating lamp states that the third empowerment, then how to say it illustrates it also illustrates the taking of the fourth empowerment.
So then by that, then that which is said to be empowerment then refers to those two empowerment. And then Geshe-la was then explaining. So then this statement of the clear, the illuminating lamp then is in accordance with the former statement that this explanation that was just given. And then when Geshe-la was then explaining, so then when the text talk about the need of the empowerment, then it’s referring then to the need before attending union, then it’s referring to the need of both the third and the fourth as power, the necessity of having both the third and the fourth empowerment. Okay?
And then so then and then the the illuminating lamp goes on. Then saying then when one when one then, how to say, receives the third empowerment, then before that, the three states of white appearance, red increase and black near attainment then come about. Then from that near attainment, then whilst is then entering the clear light, then how to say, one then manifests how do you say? That how do you say? The manifests Loose.
Oh, that’s all. And then so then, okay, so then and then once one is then engaging from from that near attainment when one is is engaging then entering then the clear light, then even even the the subtle, very subtle dualistic appearances then, how to say, disappear or are destroyed. And then from that, then one realizes the innate state, the ultimate innate state, then the ultimate innate state then manifests. And then I was asking, is this the ultimate innate state? What is it?
And then again, it’s it is the ultimate clear light and manifests. And then so then the text goes on to say the commentary goes on to say that it appears that it was the previous the previous assertions of the illuminating lamp and and so forth were then based on that sort of on that on this on this explanation, this this line of this way of explaining. Okay? So then and then according to this last to this latter way of of of latter way of latter way of of explaining it, then then before before receiving the third empowerment, then one receives the instructions, the oral instructions the oral instructions on the on the the four oral instructions on the clear light are then bestowed. And this fourth empowerment then is not suitable to be received before the third empowerment.
So then which leads us which leads by that then by that because of that then how to say, this the union the union is attained after so then the empowerment So then one must then accept that the empowerment is received after one has attained the the union. Okay? And then Gala was then saying, so then this is this is this is going to be contradicted later on. Okay? So then this is a this is the the the how do you say?
A debate from from from the opponents. Birth of by the by the opponents. Okay? So then the commentary goes on to call then in accordance with the explanation of the actual enlightenment, the steps which is explanation of the actual enlightenment. Then the order of practice is that first, one then how to say, receives the third empowerment, and then immediately after, one then receives the fourth empowerment.
That’s the way of practice. Then if it is not like this, if it is not in this way, then not not having received prior to having received So then before and not having received Los. Los. Los. Los.
So then if one does, how do say, if it is not like this, then there will be the downfalls of explaining it in a way where the body of union emerges just like the fish emerging out of the water, but before having even received the fourth empowerment. So then, Gara was then explaining. So the the previous statement was then saying that then one can emerge in the body of union without having received the the the fourth empowerment. And then this text is then explained that it is a fault that is wrong. One can only emerge in the body of union having received the fourth empowerment.
That’s the whole meaning of this debate. Okay? Okay. Makes sense? Pardon?
The previous statement was asserting So the previous statement was saying So then the previous statement was then saying concluding that the opponents was then concluding that one must then accept that the empowerment is received after having attained the body of union, right? That wasn’t in the opponent’s assertion. And then he’s explaining by quoting this text of the actual enlightenment that the order of practice the order of practice, So then again, I was explaining it was the previous test then said that one received the one must then accept that one received the fourth empowerment after having attained the body of union. And then this text is then saying that this is not correct. This is not this is correct.
One must after the third empowerment, one immediately receives the fourth empowerment, and that’s the way the way of of practice, the stages of the practice So then this is stated in this text of the explanation of actual enlightenment. And then the author says that he thinks that those statements are contradictory, they contradict each other. And then one is saying that one must then those of intelligence must then examine the intentions of Jetsün Tsongkhapa, Je Rinpoche, okay, which were previously stated by Je Rinpoche. And then he says the author then referring to himself, he says that he himself, which is confused and dull, cannot make a decision on this point. It is very difficult for him to make a decision on this particular point, okay?
No. The there’s no there’s no No. The the he’s saying he’s saying that first, said that the other things that those those two assertions that were that that were just mentioned of the opponents and then this other explanation of the explanation of actual enlightenment, then he thinks that those explanations are are contradictory. And then he’s saying that one must one must investigate those who are intelligent must then investigate what is intention of. He doesn’t mention any any text of in particular.
He says one he’s referring one to to study the text of and see what is must be done. And then he says about himself that he who is confused and dull cannot get to cannot make his mind up about this this topic. You asked you asked the text. So Geshe just just mentioned the text. So then again, Geshe-la was repeating that the author is telling us that we should investigate the teachings of Je Rinpoche.
And then, again, again, I was saying something, what text of Je Rinpoche should we study? And then, I was mentioning the the the stages of the path of secret mantra, the great exposition of the stages of the secret mantra. And Illuminating Lamp of the Five Stages. So so then this this the illuminating lamp of the five stages is a text which is a thick like this. Two assertions come from this side?
The two assertions. One comes from general opponents of this of this school. He thinks he thinks that the the illuminating lamp of the five stages is here. And then the other the other was from from the explanation of actual enlightenment. It’s another text.
It’s another text with explanation of our actual So then this actual So then, again, I was just saying, so then the formerly, this illuminating lamp, which is another text, not the illuminating lamp illuminating the Illuminating Lamp of the Five Stages. The illuminating lamp, another text, and this explanation of actual enlightenment. Geshe-la says he doesn’t know who are the authors of this this text, and he says he thinks that those are texts that were brought from India, those Indian scriptures. So then, again, the opponents have something to say. So many the scholars many scholars say say different having have meditated and practiced, then they say they say different things.
They assert different things. So then then some opponents then say that those proximate causes of, how to say, manifesting the actual clear light, then it is not one cannot it follows then and one cannot explain them to be the fourth stage. Because how to say, the in the continuum of one who is about to attain the ultimate clear light, there is it is already present, the third stage is already present. Then the text goes on to say, then that how to say, that the the impure the impure illusory body of that continuum of that being, then that is the third stage. And then so then so then that is the impure illusory body.
Okay. So then what is being said is that it was stated previously that the proximate causes of the ultimate clear light are on the fourth stage. And then the opponent is then stating that it is not all right then to state that because it’s then stating that the proximate causes of of the of the ultimate clear light is then the impure illusory body, which is which is on on the third stage. And then so then those causes are then the inferior illusory body. That’s what this opponent is stating.
Okay? Okay? That’s what I’m saying. That’s what the opponent the opponent is then saying that it is unacceptable to state that the the approximate causes of this ultimate clear light is is the the fourth stage in the fourth stage. He’s then stating that those causes must be called must be under the heading of the third stage.
Must be included in the third stage, not in the fourth stage. Okay? So then the the author then the author of this commentary then concludes that he he he thinks that there is no pervasion here, but he himself, Geshe-la explained that the author has not got to any conclusion hasn’t got to any conclusion about that, and one must then analyze the subject further by oneself. Then it is to say that okay. It’s looking?
Yeah. It is to say that it is to say that there is an illusory body, which is the approximate cause of attaining the clear light, but it is not that stage, the third stage of illusionary body itself. It is still fourth stage. So then Geshe-la is saying, so then again, so it is is illusionary body, but it is not the stage of illusionary body. And then again, is ultimately realized, but it is not the fourth stage.
And then it doesn’t pervade that it is the must be the fourth stage. So then Gala says there are many cases where this nonpervasion comes comes about. Yes? Yeah. Of course.
Yes. Or is it merely scholarly speculation? I think I do. So then I was so then I asked, again, if if those people like himself, those authors, those those opponents and all and so forth, if they were practitioners or not, Geshe-la was answering, so then they are all practitioners, they are all writing from experience. And then so why is it that we have all these debates then?
I think Geshe-la was explaining so is that we know so just to let us know, to allow us to know these different point of views that come from the experience of these practitioners. So we know what they have experienced themselves. So so then the one one you might be thinking that those they did that out of with a dark mind and just trying to to confuse us. But but that was not the intention. The intention was just to make it clear to us to let us know the different experiences, different to let us understand the subjects so then we can develop, let’s say, our intelligence and then realize these things by ourselves.
But what what just ask something. I I didn’t have the time to forget to So then they they give us they give us a hard time. Yes. But they explain differently. So then Geshe-la says so then not necessarily so.
I mean, they they all each individual has has this different experience. But then they they all have how to say, they all have worked hard, very hard, and having worked hard, then they they gain wisdom, and then they have realized the objects of of meditation and so forth. So then if one thinks that it is it is difficult subject and then leaves it aside, then in the future, one will be in the same the same place where one is now, then one won’t won’t progress any further. So there’s no no place for for, how do say, discarding it or, yeah, giving it up. Usually, because it’s difficult, people just leave it aside, but it’s very difficult to to find someone who didn’t who didn’t even though it is difficult, the one who studies and then meditates and try to finds out find out what it is all about.
And so it’s easier easy just to to leave it aside and be happy. So then, again, it’s very difficult because those are sort of questions that come about after having meditated a lot. So it’s difficult. So then you got I said, it’s not easy. This is if one wants to attain enlightenment in this life, this is this is the the practice for for attaining enlightenment in this life.
So it’s not easy. It’s very difficult. So then, yeah, it goes in a sense. So then this text then they then they explain that one must then first have realized emptiness and and and and mind of enlightenment and renunciation, and then one then practices such such things as and so forth. And then but because we do not have any of this, so it is very difficult for us now, isn’t it?
So then we go to the next topic then, which is the fourth stage. So then from the fourth stage from from the the ultimate clear light in the fourth stage no, from the Ultimate Clear Light, the fourth stage, from it’s a slight movement of that wind of that ultimate clear light mind. And so then acting as direct substantial cause and which is at the same time acting as a direct substantial cause that wind, which is the mount of the ultimate clear light, at the same time acting as a direct substantial cause. And then that ultimate clear light mind itself acting as, how to say, immediate condition. Then on that basis, then the pure illusion body emerges.
And so then from from that up until until the attainment of of the limits, how to say, the limits of the learner’s ground of the the the ultimate clear light of the limits of the learner’s ground. That is of the of the of the completion stage. So that is the the union of a learner or which is also called, how do you say, the the essence, the nature of the completion stage of the inseparability of the two truths. Okay? Is that making sense?
So then so then, again, I was then explaining. So then the tax is then telling us that with having as substantial cause then the wind, which is the mount of the Ultimate Clear Light Mind and having that Ultimate Clear Light Mind as a cooperative immediate condition, then that pure illusory body emerges. And then as opposed to the in the third stage, when you have the impure illusory body, which emerges out of the wind, which is the mount of the metaphoric clear light mind, which acts as a substantial cause. And then that metaphoric clear light mind itself as a cooperative, how to say, immediate condition. Okay?
So then so then that that is the the the completion stage of of the, how to say, limits of a learner’s ground of the ultimate clear light mind, and that is also called the union the inseparability the the completion stage, completion stage, of the inseparability of the two truths. So then so then that Loss. Loss. So that, again, union of a learner, and that is the inseparability of the two truths. So then So then Geshe-la is explaining.
So then that what is the words which referred in English, the words which are union and the the other word which is in the inseparability, when there is inseparability of the two truths, inseparable two truths. So then Geshe-la is saying the union is the union of that great bliss with the mind that realizes emptiness. So then all in one in one mind. And then, again, the inseparability of the two truths, again, is referring also that that inseparability, that inseparable is referring again to the union, referring again to those those two, the the the great bliss and the realization of emptiness. Emptiness.
Yeah. So then going on to the next paragraph then so then that emerging then arising then from in the reverse from that near attainment of the reverse order, which arises from the ultimate clear light mind of that fourth stage, then you have the attainment of the pure illusion body or the attainment of the union, the abandonment, the abandoning of afflictive emotions, the transferring or the transference to the second ground and also the attainment of the path of meditation. Those all of those occur at the same time. Okay? So I was just asking, so then this union of abandonment, I was asking, you know, what what is the meaning of that?
Just because when one attains the union, then one abandons the afflictive emotions. That’s the moment when one attain abandons afflictive emotions. So then that’s called the union of abandonment. This one? Okay.
So then so then the the author is then explaining that this is from the perspective of someone who who is a definitive lineage of the highest yoga tantra, someone who’s then had started his path on highest yoga tantra and goes on on that path until attain attainment attainment of enlightenment. Okay? So then, so then, that ultimate clear light mind and etcetera, which then arises at the end of other paths.
Then one must then one must then accept them to be of the primordial wisdom or the wisdom of the of the tenth ground. And Geshe-la, well, also the author also thinks that the union of a learner is inseparable or indivisible, or how to say, is one with the path of meditation of the ninth ground. The body of union of of a learner. Sorry. The union of a learner.
So it goes then as it was stated before, when one attained the the pure illusion of the body, then one is transferred to the second ground. So then so then the glaciers explain. So then it must it must be then that it goes from the second ground until the ninth ground that body of the learner is is that’s in the path of meditation. Okay? So then those innate afflictions, they are abandoned or they are yes, they are abandoned by the clear light of the fourth stage.
And also the illuminating lamp states also that the time of attainment or the very beginnings of attainment of the learners union, then also one abandons those afflictive emotions. So then I I was I was asking Gela to stop here now because I now we start a lot of debates that I I I wasn’t able to get through them. So I have to I have to study more of this. Any questions? Bring it up.
Last paragraph. Yes. One stage is referring to the second ground. Other is referring to the ninth and tenth ground. Yes.
The mantra one. the path of $1 as described Perfection. Perfection vehicle. So then the first the first mention of the second ground, having been transferred to the second ground and then having attained the the path of meditation. The first that first when it is first mentioned, it is in the context of someone who is of definitive definite lineage of Hajjogatantra.
Someone who has started, entered the path, first engaged in the path in Highest Yoga Tantra and then went all the way through without going to other paths, straight to the to enlightenment in Highest Yoga Tantra. And then the second mention of saying that that one must then posit the ninth ground to be, how to say, the path of meditation, inseparable with the path of meditation of the union of a learner. So that second context is in the context of someone who is not of definite lineage. But so someone who is practicing Tantra, but has not practiced only Tantra from the very beginning. And then Geshe-la was explaining further that but it is still is still talking here in this context about about someone who is practicing Tantra.
And when when the text talks about here, what is it? So then also the union of a learner. So then there’s the path of meditation. When the author talks about being separable with the ninth ground, divisible with the ninth ground, so then it’s not only the ninth ground, it’s all the way that path of meditation and is from the second up to the ninth ground, is making reference to that. But then also is talking about someone who is practicing Tantra is the ninth ground of Tantra.
But again, from someone who is not of definite lineage, someone who has engaged in other lineages or the paths. So then I just I just asked, so what is the difference between grounds and paths of the perfection vehicle and what and and the grounds and paths of the mantra vehicle? And so so then this is is completely different because when we’re talking about the we’re talking we’re talking about very coarse minds, minds that realize emptiness, etcetera, but they are very coarse minds. And when and when we’re talking about the mantra, we’re talking about very subtle minds, minds of innate bliss and and and emptiness. So then it’s it can say it’s completely different.
They are two different things. So then so then the afflictive emotions that are abandoned in the path of seeing of the perfection vehicle and the afflictive emotions that are abandoned the innate afflictive emotions that are abandoned in the path of seeing of the mantra vehicle. They are different in in. So then those are those are different afflictions in terms of subtlety. And then, again, they are so then there are different paths.
So then I was explaining that the path of meditation has three main divisions. So the small, the medium and the big and the great. And then each one has three, so make up nine stages. And then each one of them abandon different afflictive emotions. And then in the in the so this perfection vehicle.
This is a perfection vehicle. And then in the in the mantra vehicle, then again, you have the object of abandonment is different. So what you’re trying to to to what you’re trying to abandon here, what you’re trying to stop here is the the appearance ordinary appearance and ordinary grasping. And then again, that has three major divisions, small, medium, and big, and each one of them has small, small, small, medium, small, big, like this. So then concluded and the the the the objects of abandonment, the different path and the objects of abandonment are different.
Of meditation. No. We’re not comparing. Because you’re still you’re talking okay. You’re talking a a different sort of understanding.
But, like, why then do you refer to why do you have the the terms union of of So then it’s like this. So then there is in the sūtra vehicle, there are the grounds and paths of the sūtra vehicle. Okay? And then there are the grounds and paths of the mantra vehicle. And there are different things because one is of the sūtra and the other is of the tantra.
So there are two different things even though the terms grounds and paths are the same, path of seeing, path of accumulation, path of preparation, and path of seeing, path of meditation, and path of no more learning. The terms are the same, but one is of tantra and the other one is of sūtra. And then, again, again, I was then was going was just mentioning that later in this text, there’s going to come an explanation how to relate the stages of the generation, the completion stage, how to relate those stages to the grounds and paths of tantra. How they relate. So which which stage is which ground, which path, and so forth.
Of completion stage. Five stages completion stage. And then the text is going to explain how we can relate each of those five stages to the the the the ten grounds and the five paths. It is not a comparison. Further on the test is going to be an explanation of how how to understand the grounds and paths of mantra in relation to the to the five stages of a completion stage.
Completion stage. So so yeah. This and then so then this is the fourth stage of the ultimate clear light. And then the fifth stage, there’s going to be is this is the stage of union. Then of union of a learner and the union of a non learner.
And then again, so then the the the union of a non learner is is is is what is stated in the grounds and paths of tantra as as the the path of no no more learning. Then they asked. This is today was what lastly, what was being taught was the the learning’s union, fifth stages. No. No.
No. Later in the in this text, there comes an explanation of how to correlate the five stages of completion stage to the grounds and paths of Tantra. That that from the from the automatic clear mind, the wind of the ultimate clear light mind and the automatically aligned mind as a cooperative immediate condition, then one gives rise to the pure illusionary body, and that is the learner’s union. So then so then then this this is the explanation of the learners union. And then later, there’s going to be an explanation of the of the nonlearners union.
And then after that, there’s going to be an explanation of how to correlate the five stages with the the grounds and paths. No. No. Union. I I will I’ll ask Geshe-la because he’s going to give an explanation.
You’re going to understand. So then union, that word which is translated as union is is is has to do with two entities, and the other one means together. So it’s which which the bliss, great bliss together, inseparably together with the mind that realizes emptiness. Two things together, union, inseparable and inseparable. Yeah.
But those are separable. So then Gala Gala is explaining that even the marriage is not like the union that’s being referred here. The union that’s being referred here is like pouring pouring milk on water. If you pour milk on water, you cannot separate them. You cannot distinguish one from the other.
It’s like that. The the so the bliss and emptiness are together like this, like milk and water. Inseparable. Okay. Okay.