Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Three interlocking debates about necessity and sequence drive this 47-minute commentary, as Geshe Pema Tsering works through Ngawangpa’s text on the grounds and paths of secret mantra. Each debate tests whether one stage “pervades” — necessarily precedes — another: the Learner’s Union and Non-Learner’s Union; the impure illusory body and ultimate clear light; and mental isolation and the illusory body. Ngawangpa’s refutations draw on the Kālacakra system, where empty form and immutable great bliss substitute for illusory body and clear light, and on the Buddha’s own exceptional path as a counterexample. The session closes with the defining characteristics of the completion stage — yoga arising from winds entering, abiding, and dissolving in the central channel — and a note that Guhyasamāja and other highest yoga tantras share the same five-stage function but employ entirely different techniques. For practitioners already versed in Highest Yoga Tantra terminology.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 29 2006 03 16 G and P.mp3
UUID: 4e11c561-ab6d-47cf-8bb4-e0bdab8d4d8f
Teacher: Geshe Pema Tsering
Collection: Grounds & Paths (Geshe Pema Tsering)
Date: 2006-03-16
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 47.5 minutes
Words: ~2,979
So now we have to give rise to a good motivation then thinking that in order to bring all sentient beings and like one oneself is now going to study this text on the grounds and paths of secret mantra in order to be able to achieve enlightenment in this very life in order to accomplish that goal. And then with this special motivation in mind, We listen to the. Oh, yeah. So then now, okay, again, you all know how we go about it. We let’s work it out together.
So we are on Page twenty nine of the English text is the second paragraph, which is regarding this one says. Okay? That’s where we are. So then I’m going to do again with the Tibetan version is saying, so then the non learners in order to attain the non learners union, one must attain before that one must attain the the learners union, which is the the gathering together of both the clear light and the illusory body. So that’s what the opponent the opponent is saying that that it follows that this is so.
Okay? And then he gives us a reason for that. He gives us a reason that in in in as in the it is explained explained in the general tantras, highest yoga tantras, that in the the the nonlearners unit, that in order to attain the attainment of the non-learners union is is so pervaded. It says that it is necessarily it is necessarily so in the other explanations. And then the author of our text, Ngawangpa then says that that there is no pervasion between the reason is not applied.
Is is that is that making any sense to you people? The reason does not apply. Yeah. Yeah. No.
Okay. It’s a confusion with words. So what is he saying? There is no pervasion. There’s no pervasion.
But what he’s giving as as an argument, which what he gives us an argument for the establishment of that reason. Okay? So let’s say, let’s put it this way. He’s saying that the the the the then the the the he he said that this is so because in the in the general, it is explained in the general highest yoga tantras that attaining the learner’s union, attainment of the learn known known learner’s union is is pervaded by death. So it says that in general tantras, it is it is that it is said that he says that in the in the highest yoga tantras, such is stated there.
And that last statement, this statement which says that in the highest yoga tantras explained so, that is is incorrect. Okay? So it’s like this, okay. So then it’s like this. So the reason that what we’re calling the reason here is that in order to attain the Non Learners Union, one must it must be preceded by the attainment of the learner’s union, which is the gathering together of both the clear light and the illusory body.
And then the sign that he gives to corroborate this reasoning, right, what we call it, we’re calling sign. He would have liked it a sign, but it’s it’s the sign that he uses is that in the in the the general highest yoga tantra, it is explained that the non-learners’ union, the attainment of the non-learners is pervaded by such. And then the author say that that there is no pervasion. But then he says after that, that the sign is easily understandable. So that is the case.
That is to say that in the general highest yoga tantras explained that the nonlearners’ union nonlearners’ union, which is the state of enlightenment, is pervaded. The attainment of the learners’ union is pervaded by that, by the the the the learners’ union of the the enlightened illusory body. So that is is is is is is understandable. But then one cannot say one cannot say that one cannot accept this this this argument. Okay?
This line of thought because he said before, it doesn’t pervade. Meaning that when we talk about pervasion, I’m not sure if you’re all familiar with that. And when we talk about pervasion, it just means that it is not it is not necessarily so in no in every case. What that’s what he’s trying to mean. What the what the opponent was saying is that this is so in every single So it is totally covered, pervaded by that, by being by being necessarily preceded by the learner’s union of clear light and and the illusory body.
And what he says not that there’s not always the case. There is there are other cases. And he gives us an example of other cases to explain how it is not pervaded by so that in the in the in the system of the Kālacakra. Okay? The the nonlearners union, the attainment of the nonlearners union is necessarily preceded by the branch of of or absorption, which is the gathering of both, how to say, the empty body and the unchangeable immutable great bliss, which are which is not the same as clear light and illusionary body.
Understand? Is that is that clear? Does that make sense? So that that’s that’s why it’s not pervaded. No.
You don’t have the English text? And furthermore, So furthermore, he says that it is not stated in the in the Kālacakra. It’s not stated in the Kālacakra that the union, which is the gathering together of the clear lights and the illusory body must precede the non learner’s union, is said in the Kālacakra. What is and then Geshe-la said, what is needed in the Kālacakra system in order to must precede the non learner’s union in the Kālacakra system is those two, which are the branch, which is the absorption of the is the absorption, which is the collection of the immutable bliss, great bliss and the empty form the body of empty form. Okay?
What is the body of empty form and illusory body? Illusory body. Okay. So again, was saying that what was explained before in the system of the Guhyasamāja, how we give rise to the illusory body out of the wind the wind that comes the mind that realizes emptiness. So, Geshe-la was saying that the way we meditate to give rise to this body is different in in in in both systems, and that’s where the difference comes from.
He was trying to explain how it goes in the Kālacakra, but I I I’m sorry. I did not understand how exactly it goes in the Kālacakra. But he says that the way generally, when he said briefly, when he said this, the way to to generate these two bodies is different. The the the the technique is different. Okay?
But, also, it has to do with winds and channels and that I did I didn’t get. He he said something about something about that This one? It was this one. So then the text follows exactly like you said in the English. However, in this one, two, three, it’s a fourth paragraph, this one.
It says, however, those with discernment, intelligent people have a basis of investigation here because this is it was not it was not definitely this this whole topic was not definitely established, ultimately, or or how do say, ultimately established. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
That’s it. That’s exactly what it is. Hasn’t come to a final conclusion about this one. So then we go to the next paragraph. Okay?
And then some another open end is saying, then it follows that the attainment of the ultimate clear light, the mind of ultimate clear light must be preceded by the attainment of the impure impure illusory body. Because it is said in the in the illuminating lamp, in this text called illuminating lamp, that the basis of of direct entrance of the clear light before that before the basis of the of, how to say, of direct entrance to clear light, the the body of the illusory body must be given rise to. That is said in the in this illuminating lamp. And then Ngawangpa then says that this does this does not pervade. Okay?
That that’s how to say, the ultimate clear light, the term ultimate clear light, but it’s not necessarily must not necessarily be preceded by the impure illusion body. So then I was I was asking about the next sentence, which was what is it? There is no pervasion because that is explaining the mode of progression on the paths of one with definite lineage of highest yoga tantra. Because there is no pervasion because this is the yeah. It is explained as the mode of progression.
Someone definitely in the path, someone with definite lineage of of the path of highest yoga tantra. Then Geshe-la was explaining that in the in the illuminating lamp, the text of the illuminating lamp, the what is stated that there in the in the in the text is just a general statement. So it is not a specific statement. And and, again, that that’s one of the reasons why it does not pervade, why it is not necessarily so. And then And then then Ngawangpa then goes on to explain why we cannot accept that reason.
And Geshe-la repeated for me, the the reason which which is not being accepted is that before attaining the ultimate clear light, one must attain the impure illusory body. So that’s the reason why we cannot accept that because it is said that the I’m not saying that the teacher, which is the Buddha himself. So then he say, Geshe-la explained to me the meaning of this sentence, okay, which which is following here, which is he says that that the Buddha, he even though he attained the ultimate clear light, he did not had to give rise to the impure illusory body in order to attain that. So then so then okay. So then Geshe-la was explaining.
Then the Buddha, like, before he attained enlightenment, before he was enlightened with Buddha, he himself, he he attained the the the ultimate mind of clear light, but he did not he did not give had to give rise before that to the impure illusionary body. And then he says in the illuminating lamp, there is the statement that not having received the the the vase and the secret empowerment, not having previously received the vase and and the secret empowerment, and having received the last two empowerments, then not having given rise to the illusory body of the third stage, but how to say, but having given rise to the last two stages, then but have have but have but has given rise to the last two stages. Does that make any sense? Teacher had just obtained just send you two last empowerments. So yeah, well, yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that’s it. Yeah, he got the two last empowerments without having received the previous two, and he generated the last two stages without having generated the previous two, including the illusory body. And that should be known to be a special case, an exception, but which accounts for the non pervasion of the those those the the that reason. Okay? It is not always the case.
It’s not necessarily so. It’s in every instance. Okay? And then we go to the next paragraph, which we’re already in page page thirty. It says, again, another opponent says that the attainment of the impure illusory body must be it follows that attainment of the impure illusory body must be preceded by, how to say, mental isolation.
Okay? And then it is stated in the illuminating lamp, the text in the illuminating lamp, that such illusory body, how to say, from from a from how to say? The the such illusory body from what is that? From where? Where from?
Can it? So such illusory body comes from the the wind, which is the basis of accomplishment accomplishment of death and the mind. Furthermore, it says that then furthermore, it says in the in the illuminating lamp that the illusion of body must be preceded by the mind isolation because it is, how do you say, is created by by the the wind, no. By by the mind isolation, the three the three wisdoms of the mind isolation and the winds that mount that mind that was given rise to. So that is that is stated in the.
Okay? Does that make any sense? And then is saying that this that does not prevail. There’s no pervasion. It’s not necessarily so in every instance, in every case.
This one. Okay. Can can can you follow? So then why why is it gonna no. But then he’s saying that that is it doesn’t pervade because that is not the case in every instance.
Why is that? Why why he gives us a reason? What what is what is he giving as a reason to justify his argument that it does not pervade? He says because, how do you say, the before illusionary body, the mind isolation and before the mind isolation, the speech isolation of the vajra recitation must precede the illusory body must precede sorry, the statement that the mind isolation must precede the illusory body and that the speech isolation of vajra recitation must precede the mind isolation. So that statement is an instance of those disciples that are that are treading the path.
It is said in the context of those disciples who are treading the path or the mode of progression of the disciples. They they are practitioners of the the system of system of Tantra. Okay? But not but not of other system, but not of other Tantras. This is not the case in other Tantras.
So that’s why it does not pervade. That is not that’s why it is not that in every instance. Okay? So they said that such is not how to say, in the mother tantras, the disciples, trainees of the progressing on the path of the mother tantras, they do not how you say, follow this this classification. Okay?
Make sense? Cool. And then again, the illuminating lamp, the text of the illuminating lamp says that the mind isolation, which is done by the wind of the vajra recitation is done, the substitute for that or the representative of that, it’s the yoga of Tummo, okay, in the mother So then and then the substitute or the representative or that which is a substitute to the mind isolation is the how to say, the four blisses, the four joys, which are the great blisses, the great bliss that are that arises from the placing or the entering and the dissolution of the winds in the central channel on the basis of the meditation On the basis of the meditation of tummo. Meditating on tummo, and then the the winds enter and abide and dissolve in the central channel, and this great joy is for four joys arise, and that is the substitute of to mind isolation. Okay?
Those and those those two substitutes, those those two practice that that one just mentioned, they they come they come about in the in the of the the yoga of the yogini tantras. Okay? So then and then all that the text says, all that This from the text, the the presentation of the grounds and paths of Gelug, it it says that other highest yoga tantras They are they are The way the way of of positing, of gathering, how to say, possible for that. The way to to posit the five stages as as of of the Guhyasamāja and the way of other tantras is not is not the same. They are posited, how do you say?
Always explain it right now, obviously. They’re posited by way of having similar functions. So they have the same function as Geshe-la will explain of abandoning the same obscurations of attaining such and such and so forth. But the the practices, the techniques, the way of meditating, and they’re they’re different. And in this way, they they can they can be posited by the by the similar functions, but not by the the nature.
Is that does make sense? Okay? Do do do you understand? It’s very difficult to understand. Are you are you following?
Is everybody following? Yeah. I I think I understand it, sir. I like all the time. So it makes me happy to to think so.
Yeah. They have they have all this this it is what it says that they have this five stages, but they are not the same practices. They have different past. They they are They have the same function, but they are different things. One is a machete and the other is a sword.
One is machine gun, the other is a shotgun. And then we go with the delusions. Oh, yeah. So then we finished the first part of this completion stage, which was the analysis of the definition of completion stage, right? We finished that, that’s first part.
And we are going into the explanation of the completion stage. So then so is asking, do you understand the the meaning of the defining characteristics of a completion stage? Maybe? So then, Geshe-la says, so then the definition, the defining characteristics of completion stage is that yoga, which comes comes about by the the entering, abiding in the dissolution of the winds in the central channel by force of meditation. And that is so that is those are the defining characteristics. And then the text just goes through many analysis or investigations.
So can can we stop here today? It’s okay? All in there? It’s okay. Yeah.
Yeah.