Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. A subtle technical puzzle anchors this 67-minute session: can the four joys arising from winds entering the central channel occur in a generation stage practitioner’s continuum, and if so, does that constitute completion stage? Geshe Pema Tsering examines the classical definition of completion stage, then traces a debate drawn from the Illuminating Lamp — a key Guhyasamāja commentary — on whether such experience in a generation stage practitioner truly qualifies. The session closes with Q&A on the four joys — not ordinary feelings but bliss accompanying realization of extremely subtle emptiness — and on the many levels of mind traversed across the five paths to enlightenment. For practitioners already engaged with Highest Yoga Tantra study.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 25 2006 03 02 G and P.mp3
UUID: 8d6c5a79-1ee6-4d90-aeac-f6dbf3c01beb
Teacher: Geshe Pema Tsering
Collection: Grounds & Paths (Geshe Pema Tsering)
Date: 2006-03-02
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 67.4 minutes
Words: ~4,799
No. Can we can we get a a good house or a good house now? Dokey. I’m gonna is is telling us now we have to give rest of good motivation, and then thinking that in in order to accomplish the welfare of all sentient beings, we must achieve enlightenment. Not only must we achieve enlightenment, we must achieve enlightenment in this very life.
And then in order to accomplish that, we are going to going to listen and study the teachings on the grounds and paths of sacred mantra. So we are on page twenty six. The way to meditate on your completion stage. Okay? It’s going to be difficult.
That is not not easy. It’s going to be very difficult. I I will do my best to to give the the appearance of of of being easy. Yeah. Make it look like we all understand everything.
So then so then we get straight on the this first two topics here in the beginning. There are two divisions for the completion stage. The first one, in the English version, you see that explaining some classifications of the completion stage of the aryas system. So first, as for the word classification, it can be translated also as divisions. The Tibetan word can be translated as divisions.
So explaining, Geshe-la was telling you to this briefly, generally explaining the aryas system, which is aryas system refers here to Ārya Nāgārjuna, to the system of Ārya Nāgārjuna, okay, which is the good according to you can you can see. This is an excellent book. Recommend. So it’s a it’s a Guhyasamāja Tantra according to Ārya Nāgārjuna. Okay?
So it’s explaining briefly explain generally explaining the system of, its divisions or its classifications. And then the second one, teaching in brief the completion stage of all this or all the. So the last sense it’s just like giving abbreviated yeah, an overview and abbreviated version of other systems and then going to mention just passing the So then the first one, which is explaining a few classifications or or some divisions of the of the system of Ārya Nāgārjuna. So it has two parts to it. So first is analyzing or investigate analyzing analyzing the definition of completion stage.
And then which is which I think is definition in the singular will be better. And then so investigating analyzing the definition of the completion stage. And then the second topic is the meaning of its classification. Again, the word that was classified as classification could be considered as division. So this is this Ārya Nāgārjuna according to Ārya Nāgārjuna has five divisions to it, has five parts to it, five steps maybe.
And then so each of these five parts or steps is going to be explained individually. Loss. So then the first one, which is analyzing the the definition or the defining characteristics. This is such a difficult word to translate, isn’t it? The word that is translated as definition or analyzing the definition or the defining characteristics of completion stage.
So the completion stage or the defining characteristics of the completion stage according to Pänchen Chökyi Gyaltsen, as stated by Pänchen Chogyen as follows. So it’s the yoga on the continuum of a of a trainee that arises by, how to say, by the entrance, the abiding and the dissolution into the central channel of the winds by force of meditation. Okay? Does it make sense? Cool.
And then so according to Pänchen Chogyen again, that’s the those are the defining characteristics of completion stage. And then the order of this text, is saying that this he thinks that this is how to say, the the the defining characteristics the general defining characteristics of completion stage of Ārya Nāgārjuna. Just generally, how do you say? Generally. Yeah.
Does that make sense? If I do I say general. Not a one specific system, but generally. Yeah. Okay.
This one? So then so then so then the the author says that he thinks that he’s. Is referring to the general defining characteristics of the generation stage or completion stage because because of what? Because if it is generally, if it is completion stage, if it is called completion stage, then it is not necessarily pervaded by the the placing, abiding, dissolution in the central channel of the winds by force of meditation. Okay?
So then is is giving as an example of something which is completion stage, but it’s not the placing in the central channel, the entrance in the central channel. The system of the Kālacakra which is called Sojong, which is translated in the English here as individual withdrawal, which is withdrawal inside. It’s a kind of I’m going to explain it as a kind of concentration. And then, which is absorption. So there is this individual withdrawal and absorption. They both of them, they are completion stage, but they are preliminaries of the entrance of the winds in the central channel.
Preliminaries to the entrance of the winds in the central channel. Okay? You have a is this according to the Taks system. It’s okay. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, I I understand the the from Tibetan to, but the meaning is don’t understand anything. Yeah. This this is very technical here, so you’re gonna have to forgive all of us here today because this this is one technicality after the other. I don’t have an idea either.
So then in the in the in the the Tibetan text, this see this not? So in the Tibetan text, this is saying that it is stating here that it will be explained later in this text of Namgyal, then he’s going to explain later because he has a chapter on Kālacakra itself. So in that chapter, he’s going to explain that this individual withdrawal and the absorption, they are a completion stage, but they are before the entrance of the wind into the central channel. So he’s saying here that he’s going to explain that later in the chapter on So then to that, some people would say to that, to what was stated before, that if something is a yoga of the continuum of a student where it comes about the entering, abiding in dissolution of the winds in the central channel by force of meditation, then it is not pervaded. It is not necessarily completion stage, okay?
It follows that because this opponent is saying because such how do you say? There are, there are, how do you say? There is a generation stage, which is like that. The text is saying. There is, how do you say?
There is a yoga like that in the continuum of a generation stage practitioner that this this opponent is saying. Okay? So then he’s saying that so then there is such a yoga like that in the continuum of generation stage practitioner. And then furthermore, he says that there is in the continuum of such a practitioner, of a generic practitioner, there is the four joys of the coming of the entering, abiding in the dissolution in the central channel of the winds in the continuum of such a practitioner. So he’s saying that these things that there are these things in the continuum of a generic practitioner.
And then is saying that this this this reasoning does not pervade. This is not correct. But he says that the the signs, how do you say, the signs that he used, the arguments that he used to reach to that conclusion, they are established. They are alright. But the conclusion that he reached is not all right.
Okay? Because then he says that in the illuminating lamp, this text illuminating lamp, it is stated, and then we’re going to get to the next where is it? Yeah. This page twenty seven, this bigger quotation in the illuminating lamp. Okay?
So then what Geshe-la is explaining that what is going to be stated what what the the the lamp illuminating is stating, right, so if he’s giving a a preview of what’s going to be said, is that there are the four joys that come about by the entering abiding and the dissolution of the winds in the central channel in the in the continuum of of a generation stage practitioner. He’s gonna say that there is such a thing such a thing does does happen. So then in the in the illuminating lamp, okay, let’s see if we if we can work this out together. Okay? You keep an eye on the text, and I will try to give you a good translation in English.
So the illuminating lamp is stating what follows. Is that if in the some a certain person, a certain individual has completed has brought to completion the subtle generation stage, if it had done if it has done such, then the winds can be can enter the duty, the central channel, what is called the avadhuti, the central channel. It is possible that the winds enter the central channel. And then by knowing of the points where the How does he translate that? No.
No. No. It’s there is there’s a word that it translates, the life force exertion. So this life force exertion, okay, the translation I found for this the the Tibetan word that they are translating life force exertion is prana. Prāna.
Prāna. It is either prana or pranayama. It could refer to both words. So it’s it’s it’s controlling the winds. Or it is this word in Tibetan word in the translation that I found, either refer to the winds themselves or to to the pranayama, which is controlling these winds, making them enter the channels and so forth.
So let’s go back. So then by by this person knowing the points where the prana can should go, the points in his body where the prana should go and by the union with an external seal, an external consort in this case, then on the basis of based on that, that how to say, the based on that, based on that knowledge, based on that thing happening, this person, let’s say, he has brought the wind into the central channel to dissolve, and then he experiences it’s possible for him to give rise to these four joys of the dissolution of the winds in the central channel. PRANA. PRANA. PRANA.
Then so then these two things that were stated, right? So first, the entering in the central channel, the place in the central channel of the winds and then the dissolution of the winds in the central channel. So these two things, They they might come about even though they might come about in the in the context at the time of the generation stage in terms in of being how do you say? In terms of positing it as a path, then if we posit it as a path, a path which is something that is happening in the continuum of the practitioner, then we have we need to call it a completion stage path. Path of the completion stage.
Does that make sense? This words about words, okay? It’s about words and definitions. Okay? Mhmm.
Yeah. It’s just words and definitions. They’ve been just being playing with words and definitions. So they debate on that all the time. You know?
So then you see, according to Geshe-la, okay, so in the end in the end of this quotation of of the illuminating lamp, the second part of the quotation, the second paragraph of this quotation. The text in English was translated as at the time of the empowerment and prior to meditating on the path is explaining the oral transmission. So this thing that was translated as the oral transmission, Geshe-la was explaining that the Tibetan word, the is is an honorific for mouth, and is is a transmission. But was explained that this is the abbreviated noun of of a particular tantra. Okay?
Which I’m I’m not to be able to to give you the name in English now. Anyway, so it says that in this tantra, in this particular tantra, it stays the same thing. It’s in accordance with what was stated in the illuminating lamp. Not only that, but it also says that, how do you say, the at the time of an empowerment, which comes previous to the actual meditation on the path, this can also come about. Something like that can also happen.
And then I asked what is what is it that is happening? So again, I was explaining that in the case of certain special people, beings, then by the time of the empowerment, they experience the winds entering the central channel and the dissolving and then experience the the they have the experience of the four joys. And that is also posited in terms of path as completion stage. Okay? Does it make sense?
Now you can understand a bit better so it’s like this. So he was stating he was stating first that the signs or the reasons that he used to establish that the opponent that opponent used to get to that conclusion that he got. The opening was saying that those reasons are correct. But now he’s stating now he’s stating, but but we cannot accept the conclusion that he got that the opponent got to because even though the path that comes about by the entering abiding the dissolution in the central channel of the winds in the continuum of a generation stage practitioner, even though there is such a path practitioner, path that comes about by the force of having brought to completion the generation stage and by union with an external seal or consort, okay? That’s how it is brought about.
It is not brought about by the force of meditation of the special methods that penetrate or that operate in the specific points of the body, which is and then I ask, so which is, let’s say, a particular specific method of the completion stage. So it is not brought about by this method of the complexion stage. It is brought by other other other factors. And because of that, we cannot accept what what was stated by the opponent. Okay?
So then and then if if if okay. But is a very technical, this whole thing. So then if if that is said, all that was said is said, then some opponent will come and say the following thing. Just take the subject that was stated before. Okay?
Take such an instance, which is which is was translated here. Take such an instance. Then Geshe-la was explaining. So there being the experience of the four joys, the arises of the four joys by the entering, abiding, and dissolution in the central channel of the winds in the continuum of generation stage practitioner. Take that instance, okay?
Then it follows is a completion stage because the text that was quoted before, which was it was the illuminating lamp that was quoted before, says that that is a path of the generation stage. And if that’s if such is said, if all these things are said, So then if that’s what was stated before, it’s said, okay, because it is it follows that such an instance is a completion stage because in the text that was quoted before, it is stated as being a path of the completion stage. So if that is said, then even though it is a type of realization of the completion stage, okay, it is neither it can be said that it is neither of them, it is neither the completion stage or neither the generation stage nor the completion stage. It can be said so or it can be said that in the continuum of a generation stage practitioner, there is completion stage, okay? So it’s just a problem with words there that these people are having, okay?
And I say that must one must analyze for oneself what one wants to call it, okay? Because if such is said, okay, if in such an instance that was stated before, the instance of in the continuum of a generation stage practitioner that being the experience of the four joys because of the entering abiding the solution, the central channel of the winds, in such a stage, it was said that it was said in that text that, that is a path of the completion stage. If this is said, okay, then we have to again, I was explaining, we have two choices, okay? Either we can say that it is neither completion stage nor generation stage, even though it is a realization of the type a type of realization of the completion stage, we can choose not to call it either generation stage or completion stage. Or we can say then or we can say that in the continuum of a generation stage practitioner, there is completion stage.
That’s all there is to it. Can we stop here today? Is that okay? It’s a bit early. I know more early than usual, but because we are going to start we finish this we if we stop here today, we finish right here in the meaning of each classification.
And if we start with the meaning of each classification, there is a whole line of reasoning that goes for two pages in stages. Yeah. Wouldn’t be very nice. Alright. Thank you.
Yeah? I don’t know about complicated, but questions if you want. Anyone finds out, please tell me. I I I read about them also. You know?
The I don’t know. I didn’t have to there must be said there must be an address in this these books, these tags. They always talk about I know. I know. I heard about them.
I read those books also. I read the same book. I read it. I read it. Yeah.
I don’t know how to say that in the background. Yeah. What was that? Sorry. What would you like to know?
Before July, So okay. We’re going to get technical. Okay? So you want to know if if those are Pleasant feelings. Feelings of happiness, feelings of pleasantness Yeah.
As opposed to neutral feelings and and and suffering feelings, painful feelings. Yeah. Or do they have another meaning beyond that? Or do they if they’re they’re not exactly feelings. Okay.
So then So then can I say so so, lastly, So So guys, this is a very difficult subject? It’s a very complicated subject. So it is something that is very difficult to achieve also. I mean, you have to achieve calm abiding, absorptions and so forth in order to be able to get to that stage. It is not referring to feelings, okay, to those to the aggregates of feelings, which are pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings.
It’s not referring to that. It’s not feelings in that sense. Though it is dewa dewa, which is translated as as as happiness, is translated as translated as pleasant, is translated as bliss. Okay? So it is this Dewa, it is this bliss, but it’s a bliss that comes, again, by the the entering and by the dissolution of the winds in the central channel.
It’s which which Geshe-la is saying it is it is a bliss that comes out of of a a that is realizing a very, very subtle emptiness. He says there are many kinds of emptinesses, and this is referring to to the the the bliss that that that accompanies a mind mind that is realizing a a very, very subtle emptiness, extremely subtle emptiness. And then to realize that mind is something that’s far beyond our reach, gonna say, is very difficult to accomplish, and we need calm abiding and so forth before we can it’s not it’s not just like the bliss of calm abiding itself. It’s far beyond that. It’s a very subtle sort of emptiness, and it’s the the bliss that that comes with that.
This is you need you need to bring the winds into the central channel, make them abide there, and make them dissolve there. Not only that, you need realization of emptiness. So I gotta say there’s nothing, absolutely nothing about it, which is easy. It’s very difficult. We we are not we’re none of us are able to give rise to that experience.
Okay? Hero, please. Yeah. Different kinds of things. If you continuously realize This and that and that all the time.
Every time we do something. Oh, there is there is one. There’s no end to it. You always have to realize some end. Is that what you mean?
I’ll I’ll try to I’ll try to translate that. So then I’m not sure if I if I made gonna understand your question. He he said something. I’m going to tell it to you. If if you’re not satisfied, we can try again.
Okay? So what was explained is that if you realize the emptiness of one phenomena, okay, then realizing the emptiness having realized the emptiness of one phenomena, then it becomes very easy to realize the emptiness of other phenomena. Right? And then you always you have you are always realizing the importance of other phenomenon. Okay?
But then to realize the emptiness of this first phenomenon is very difficult. But once you have realized it, then it’s very easy to realize the emptiness of other phenomena, but you have still to realize them. Okay? And then and then on top of that, Geshe-la said that. And then on top of that, he said that if that first phenomena that we have to realize the emptiness of is that of the eye, the emptiness of the eye, the selflessness.
And we after we realized selflessness, have you realized selflessness? It’s becoming it’s going to be very easy to realize the emptiness of other phenomena by applying the same reasoning that we have applied. So that was the answer that he gave us. That’s satisfactory. Does that answer your question?
Because I think I think I understand your point. You you mean to say because the Buddha himself, he he he probably realized everything, isn’t it? The Buddha himself probably realized every emptiness there is, isn’t it? He doesn’t have to realize all the time, isn’t isn’t it? Is that is that what you’re trying to mean?
Forever. Yeah. But that’s that’s that’s what I’m trying to say. It’s what Geshe-la said is that you realize one, and then it’s easy to realize the others. But what I’m thinking what he’s trying to say is in reference to the Buddha.
I mean, the Buddha is probably realized everything. He is omniscient. He knows everything. So there’s nothing for him to realize anymore. Is that?
So there’s there is there there should be a limit, isn’t it? There should be a limit. Well, if the Buddha doesn’t realize I I don’t know. I’m not sure what wanna say, but I’m gonna ask. So I I asked I asked him, so then the Buddha the Buddha, he he has realized the emptiness of all phenomena.
And he said, yes. He has realized the emptiness of every he has realized every phenomenon. He has realized the importance of every phenomenon. He knows all about it. He realizes the all phenomena to to be existing like an illusion and so forth, but we are not Buddhists.
We have to realize. I’m not sure. I’m not being able to translate one one of the words that you’re using. So you can realize it. Right?
Is that what you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Sorry.
I’m not sure. Quite, but we cannot see the end of the space. You’re going for Alroyo. Okay. Okay.
There want to know if if if there is a certain number of different kinds of emptinesses. Well, so I start up here, like Yeah. Different different about different very Yes. Yeah. Your core you you get a course.
Yes. So as I said, there there are different kinds of instances, courses and subtles. Loss. Loss. On the last three parts or last three grounds.
You know, you the the depths of your realization Loss. Are extreme. Loss. Is there a limit? Loss.
Loss. Okay. Extremely complicated. Right? Cool.
So this is in terms of emptiness, there’s only two kinds of emptiness. There is not there is no So he’s saying that in terms of emptiness itself, there is nothing as as coarse or subtle emptiness. It’s nothing like that. There’s no coarser or or or subtler emptiness. There is two kind of emptiness, two kinds of emptiness.
The emptiness of the self, of the person, and the emptiness of other phenomena. There’s two kinds. And they are the same nature. This is the same nature. Okay.
But then there’s nothing there’s not one more subtle than the other. What is what what and then I was asking him, so what what was that you were talking about? And he said, it’s about the mind. That mind that that that that he was referring to to a certain kind of mind, a very subtle mind that realizes emptiness also. Okay?
But the emptiness itself is nothing subtle or coarse. It’s emptiness of of the person, of self, or emptiness of another phenomena, and they are the same nature. They are not one more difficult or subtle than the other or costly than the other. But as for the minds and then said for the minds, there are, like, millions of different minds. Then I use the word which is millions, millions of different minds?
No. No. The the the the minds different you have coarse minds and subtle minds, you know, awakened, dreaming, sleeping, and and many, many divisions and subdivisions and very, very subtle minds. That’s what he was referring to. I wouldn’t I’m not sure if I could get any deeper on this subject because this is this is beyond limitless mind?
No. Not limitless, but But it’s like, they’re not limitless, but they are, like, numerable and uncountable. There’s so much that we cannot count. And this is like it’s it’s like there are so many things that we have to realize until we attain enlightenment. And until we attain enlightenment, our our minds are gonna become more and more refined.
They are like so many things until we we attain the state where there’s nothing we do not know. Until we attain that state of omniscience where we know every single phenomena there is. And our mind is is going to be are going to become more and more. No number to it. There’s no there’s no way we can enumerate them.
And Geshe-la was giving another illustration, example. So for example, there are the five paths, paths of accumulation, preparation, meditation, paths of seeing, meditation, and no more learning. And then, for example, if we take someone who is in the path of accumulation. Sorry. This person is going to sit down to meditate for two days, let’s say.
And then he’s going to through many minds, he’s he’s going through from many from one’s mind to a subtle mind and a subtle mind, and how do say, getting rid of many objects of abandonment until he reaches the the the path of preparation, and he goes again meditating through through many, many, many, many minds and getting rid of many objects of abandonment until he goes to the path of seeing and so forth. And there’s so many levels levels, I could say, of mind, isn’t it? To to talk to just to to mention just the the path of accumulation alone, you’re not saying that there are innumerable levels or or of subtlety of of mind, but we cannot we cannot enumerate them because there are so many. So when we speak of such a path of a path of accumulation, for example, we talk about we divide it generally in three. We divide it in the small and the middle and the great And each one of them, we are going to divide again the small one into the small, the small, the small, middle, the small great.
And then until we get to the middling small and the middling, middling and the middle great, and then we get to the to the great small, the great middle, and the great great path of accumulation. We we talk in general terms about them. We cannot enumerate all these these states of mind or consciousness. So then so then so then so then we we we realize what is what is the word for?