Audio recorded at Buddha House Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.
About this talk. Geshe Pema Tsering opens this 44-minute session with a stage-by-stage account of what consciousness actually experiences as the four bodily elements dissolve at death — the body seeming to sink into the earth, vision narrowing from mirage to smoke to fireflies — and explains why different tantric traditions describe these signs differently depending on each person’s channels, winds, and prior practice. A lively Q&A then covers how long the dissolution process takes, why a coma does not equal death, whether sudden death affects one’s throwing karma (usefully distinguished here from completing karma), and how the mind’s five basic wisdoms carry through into any rebirth, including animal ones. The session closes on the clear light mind that arises at death and the three very different ways a dying person can meet it — with fear, with recognition, or with direct understanding.
File metadata (for organising)
File: 02 DAR 2003 10 14.mp3
UUID: 6094d6c9-f3b4-4e26-a40f-9b3cb654c1c0
Teacher: Geshe Pema Tsering
Collection: DB Death and Rebirth (Geshe Pema Tsering)
Date: 2003-10-14
Recorded at: Buddha House Adelaide
Duration: 44.0 minutes
Words: ~3,464
Hello? Okay. So now the process that happens when we start dying is that the constituents or the things, the elements that constitute our body, that is earth, fire, water, and air, they start dissolving into each other. And these are linked up to the aggregates. Yeah.
So they they said that at the beginning what happens is the earth sorry. The form aggregate dissolves in into the feeling aggregate, and the earth element dissolves into the water element. Now what this means is that the mind or the consciousness ceases to be engaged with the earth element in the body. Yeah? So it doesn’t mean the earth the earth element disappears.
It just means the consciousness cannot engage with the earth element. The earth element is of no benefit to the consciousness. Okay. So what happens at this stage internally for this person is that up until that stage, the earth element in their body has done a certain amount of work to keep them going. And as the earth element dissolves into the water element, they they have the feeling of the the water element taking over that job.
They lose their earthiness, if you like, and start feeling much more liquidy. There’s any way I can think of it describe it. So and they know that this is they understand this process is happening because the the shift in their balance that they’ve been used to has happened, so they understand that this process is going on. Okay. So during this process, there’s also external signs that that happen that people can see that this death process is happening as well.
External signs consist of the limbs lose their strength, they become thinner and kind of look wasted, so people have the experience of deteriorating, and person has the experience that their body is sinking in the ground. Oh, sorry. And they also become bent. Like, they don’t their their limbs become kind of bent. They don’t have the ability to stretch out anymore.
Feeling that their their arms and legs are waste are wasting are look wasted. They they become a little bit bent and are unable to to do to straighten out. And at the same time, they personally are feeling like they’re sinking into the ground, and their eyesight becomes very unclear. Okay. Also at this time, so internal signs that a person can deal with or or understands the death process is happening.
According to the Guhyasamāja they say that everything seems to be like a mirage to have that watery effect. And according to the Kālacakra tantra, at this stage, everything is looks smoky. So there there’s different explanations of what kind of visual imagery is happening to the person. Okay. Now the reason that some people say smoke and other people say mirage is that depending on the individual constitution of the person, that is depending on how their winds, channels and drops are set up, then they’re gonna have different experiences.
And this is also affected by the practices that they’ve done, the tantric they’ve done. So hence, in the different tantras, they have a different explanation for what appearances will come to the person. This this is there’s different channels that are described in different practices. If people are focusing on different channels and then then seeing their body in different ways and working with different channels, then they’re going to have different experiences. And also people may have different setups in their bodies, so therefore they experience slightly different things at the time of death.
Okay. Now Oh, yeah. What happens next is that the next aggregate or the next collection, which was the collection of feeling feelings that we have, so that is differentiating between happiness and sorrow, this feeling this this constitute this this aggregated feeling starts to dissolve as well. It starts to dissolve away. And as this does this, the water element decreases, and the water element gives way to the fire element.
So as before, when the earth element gave way to the water element, the water element became stronger. In this case, the water element gives way to the fire element, and the fire element becomes stronger. At this stage, the external signs is that, the the fluids of the body dry up. So that means the mouth, the eyes, all of the bits that are wet in our body dry up. Our eyes can’t move properly.
And according to the Guhyasamāja Tantra, at this stage, you see smoke. So they have you’ve seen a mirage before now smoke. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
So now the the third stage what happens in the third stage is is that the fire constitute or the fire element lessens and dissolves into the air element. Now at this time, the heat from the body withdraws. That’s the external sign. Another external sign is that the person that this is happening to, the person going through the dying process, can’t recognize anyone because their discrimination has disappeared. So therefore, they can’t recognize their relatives.
Anyone who is really close to them in this lifetime, they have no understanding of of of of what’s what in that way. An internal sign of this stage is that they see sparks like fireflies in in their vision because the heat element is dissolving. And we can stop there for now. Okay. So right.
So what’s happening here is that the gross elements of the body start dissolving. Once the gross elements of the body are dissolving, then the more subtle elements of the body are dissolving. And we were supposed to be doing different things. Just said that it wants to finish this next week, and then we can do the rebirth, what happens in rebirth. So so this is because it’s good to understand what actually is happening when people die.
Yeah? Oh, yeah. Sorry. One more thing. So after the gross elements dissolve, then the subtle mind starts the subtle mind starts dissolving into the clear light mind.
Subtlest mind. Questions? He said he doesn’t know exactly, and it depends on the individual. But he does know it depends on the individual, but he doesn’t think that you’re talking about more than an hour, and it could be anything down to a minute. So for a lot of people, it could be five minutes as it dissolves.
Because what this process is it can be pretty pretty quick. And what happens after the rough elements dissolve is that we say people are dead, but they’re still in the dying process. So the subtle elements can dissolve slower. Because the causes of death are so varied, and then the ways that people can die can also be very varied. If if a certain if people die for one reason, then that means that they can have a certain way of dying.
If there’s another reason, then that can cause them to die in a different way. Yeah. Hang on. I saw someone’s arm up before, and they’ve disappeared. Okay.
Yeah. Was was it you? A coma isn’t actually considered death. The people can have that means that a certain certain process has happened where they are no longer conscious. But that doesn’t mean that they’ve necessarily started the death process.
Alright? So you can start the death process from inside a nonconscious state. Yeah. But and also, they can get a certain something called a gel, which is I don’t know what it means. That’s some, like, medicine thing.
There a certain certain energy can come back into them to bring them out of the coma. Yeah? So the the lack of this element, yeah, whatever it is, means that they’re in a coma, but it doesn’t mean the death process has started. Because this the lack of the lack of this thing, alright, that makes people go into a karma is also comes about if people get really scared, they can faint from being really scared, and that this the the over over amount of fear, great fear, can cause people to lose that that balance and therefore go unconscious. There’s all sorts of reasons, but it’s just supposed to be the lack of this one substance.
So so what’s happening is, like, the the body is based on these winds and channels. Right? And because of the of this lack of this one element, it means that the winds and channels have been stopped. And because the winds and channel the the winds going along the channels has been stopped, there’s no consciousness, like awareness more than consciousness. Yeah.
So this that’s how people go into comas or become unconscious, but it’s nothing to it’s not necessarily linked to the death process. Renewing when it’s oil? No. No. No.
It’s it’s a it’s like they they have all sorts of ones. Okay. It’s, yeah, it’s the process that stops it’s the it’s the process that stops the winds being able to move around the at the channels. So once you have something stopping the winds moving around the channels, then you have unconsciousness. Some of the channels.
So it’s a few to a few channels. Stops it to a few channels. So it’s this element is balanced up, and, therefore, the the the channels become unblocked. Sorry. The channels become unblocked, and the winds can move to the channels, then instantly people become conscious again.
Yep. Can is it the way a person person dies or a sudden abrupt termination, like they hit by a bus? Mhmm. Can that affect a person’s throwing karma? Or was it more their attitude at that time?
Okay. If they could die peacefully, they can think about it if they’re suddenly abruptly killed. They don’t have much time to Uh-huh. Did did everybody hear that? Yeah.
Okay. So if someone dies abruptly, does that affect their throwing karma, basically? Okay. Throwing karma isn’t isn’t the moment of death karma. Yeah?
Throwing karma is the karma that you collect from your whole life, which establishes the rebirth you’re gonna take. The moment of death karma is what’s called completing karma, and that establishes the rebirth you’re going to take. Okay? Now if someone has the ability to die properly, then they can go through all practices and everything and die with a positive mind. If they just get hit by a car, yeah, and they die at that instant, then they then they’re going to be thinking whatever it was they were thinking.
Alright? If they have a couple of minutes and they can think about their teacher or they can think about the Three Jewels, then they can still die with a virtuous mind, and there’s no harm well, not much harm done. But if they if they if if they don’t and they just die because they’re just going on like it hit, they’re dead instantly, then it depends on what they were thinking at that time that can that will cause them to be reborn somewhere. Yeah? But Geshe-la didn’t like the way that you said, does that change it?
Because he said he can’t change it. It hasn’t been established yet. It’s only been established at the time of death, so you can’t change something that hasn’t happened. Right. Right.
Yes. Anthony. Did did you or Geshe-la say that the basic minds, the mind that we don’t realize and Yeah. Real life wisdom or whatever. Yep.
Could you use the word innate? I don’t know. If you use the word innate? No. If they’re in our system.
Is that what you mean? Yes. Yeah. Okay. But if you use the word.
Uh-huh. They are innate. Yay. I didn’t make a mistake. Because they’re describing the basic nature of mind.
Yeah? So because mind has this object is this clarity like a mirror or like glass, it is able to see things. It’s clarity. Yeah? Or, therefore, it has this what’s called mirror like wisdom in it.
Yeah? It has this wisdom of equality with well, I see equality is weird one because it means equanimity. This is the word equanimity, which is the ability to focus. Yeah? Like meditative equipoise.
Yeah? So it’s just equipoise, probably better. So the mind has the ability to focus. That’s the second type of wisdom. The third type of wisdom is the wisdom of analysis, which we all have.
We can discriminate between black and white. Someone who’s good, someone who’s who’s doing negative things, we have that ability. That’s the wisdom of analysis. Basic wisdom achieving activities means we have the ability to contemplate how to do things and then put them into action. Now the final one, the basic wisdom of the nature of phenomena is talking about the nature of the mind, not necessarily our ability to perceive it.
Alright? So the nature of the mind is empty. Yeah? So because it has that, because it’s it’s in the nature of the what’s called the it’s the dharmadhatu, yeah, the the the sphere of reality, then it that it has that aspect to it as well. So what’s happening here is just different ways of describing the mind.
Mind. In the same way as if Anthony was writing his name, that that would be Anthony you will call that person Anthony writing his name. And if Anthony was driving a car, you will call him Anthony driving the car. Yeah? It’s the same person, but it’s a different way of describing them depending on what they’re doing.
So if this is the basic nature of the mind Mhmm. Then it’s you know, it then that’s what’s carried through from one life to the other to the next. Okay. Yeah. No.
If if if the next life is in an animal realm Uh-huh. Does not follow that animals and other beings, whatever realm, have basically the same Okay. Of mind. So the question was, if this is the nature of mind and then it’s carried through into other lives, does that mean animals and people and animals and beings in other realms have these characteristics of wisdom? Okay.
So they all have these different characteristics, but in dependence on where they’re born, they may not necessarily come to the fore. Because whether they come to the fore or not depends on the conditions of where they’re born. Okay. So if we’re born as a human, that means that we have got certain conditions. This means we can access these different elements of the mind.
But as born as an animal, you may not have the conditions in your experience to be able to that enable you to be able to access those point parts of your mind or those characteristics of your mind, I should say. Because if I were a human being before this Uh-huh. Conversation as an animal Uh-huh. There must be a trace of the ability to clear up the earth. Okay.
So if you’re if you’re a human and then you become an animal, is the ability to discriminate and so forth as an imprint? Uh-huh. Is there an imprint of that as an animal? Okay. The inference will be there because no.
No. He said it’s not a matter of inference. It’s the nature of the mind to be able to do that. Alright? So if the conditions are there for the mind to be able to do that, it will do it.
Okay. So this nature is always present. Yeah? There’s actually what’s called two diff three different types of equanimity. There is ordinary equanimity, path equanimity, excuse me, and results equanimity.
Ordinary equanimity we have and all sentient beings have. Path equanimity is the consciousness of beings who have perceived the nature of reality and the body of beings. Yeah? Path equanimity. And result equanimity is real equanimity and which is what Buddhas have got.
Alright? It’s the ability to focus on anything they want at any time. Now, this equanimity that we have or this equipoise that we have, this ability to focus, is present in all sentient beings, but it’s not as good in some as it is in others. So although animals or other other beings may have the ability to focus, right, which is basically what we’re talking about, they may not have the ability to focus as well or for as greater purpose. As great a So the quality.
Is that cool? Yes. Okay. Signs you know, this is what I wanted to whether I heard correctly. What I heard today was that some of the things don’t actually happen.
You know? Some of the signs? Some of the signs don’t actually are are happening. But the process still happens, but they’re not the person dying or person is doing the person dying. Christian loves the fact that you were in to me because I Hey.
Because I do it to him. So, anyway, he’s laughing at me. He’s like, Okay. Okay. So yeah.
So if people are dying quickly, yeah, and if people are dying slowly, right, there’s the if people who are dying slowly’s process or the signs that manifest, is that different? Is that what you’re asking? Well Do some of the signs not manifest as it Some of the signs don’t actually happen they conceivably happen Yeah. Yeah. Sure.
Or do they perceivably happen or just not happen at all? Okay. These signs that manifest are based on the disintegration of the body. This disintegration of the elements in the body. If you get run over by a truck, you have no body left to disintegrate, basically.
It’s been obliterated. So therefore, there can be no disintegration, and therefore, there is no signs. So, therefore, that’s gonna have Okay. Into what? That’s that was his question.
Okay. So if someone dies really quick, right, they may die really quick with a virtuous thought. So that’s gonna give them a a good rebirth, and someone can die really slowly and still have a negative mind. So okay. What last question?
Well, hang on. There’s three people fighting for it. Yep. Hello. Okay.
Okay. Right. Now, Geshe-la doesn’t reckon that you can achieve emptiness — I know you can realize emptiness by seeing the clear light the nature of the clear light nature of mind. Right? Because he doesn’t reckon that’s possible.
But he he thinks that it’s possible for people to be able to to be able to perceive that this is the nature of mind. Yeah? And having perceived that that is the nature of mind at the time of death, then that will be of enormous benefit to them in their future lives. Will understand the nature, have understood the nature of the mind, and therefore be able to develop their understanding of emptiness very quickly. He just doesn’t think that you can perceive the emptiness of the clear light nature of mind directly at the moment of death.
Yeah. And then I said I read it somewhere, and he said, yeah, but you’ve read all sorts of things everywhere. Okay. So so there therefore, there’s a he said, but there’s different ways that people react to this because this this this wisdom of the nature of the mind doesn’t just relate to the clear light nature of mind which dawns at the time of death, which is the subtlest form of mind. Every single type of mind has as its nature emptiness.
So this wisdom that we have is describing the nature of the mind as opposed to our wisdom that we have, that all mind that we experience has as its nature emptiness. Now, there’s different reactions to the way that people perceive the clear light nature of mind, the subtlest we’re talking about the subtlest form of mind that during the dying process becomes the most obvious because all the other minds have faded away. Yeah? So that very subtle mind, when people see it, some people get really scared, and therefore they get thrown into the next stages of bardo. Other people say, Oh, that’s the clear light nature of mind.
I’ve heard about that. I’ve studied that. I’ve meditated on that. Therefore, I appreciate it for what it is, and that’s a very beneficial mind for them to take on to their next life. And other people actually perceive it as the nature of mind or the way that mind is, as we were saying before, and that can be of an enormous benefit to them.
So there’s all different ways that people’s that this type of wisdom or the way this wisdom manifest can affect people. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Yeah.