Dependent Origination

Audio recorded at Tibetan Buddhist Institute, Adelaide. Transcript auto-generated and AI-corrected; may contain errors.

About this talk. In this 88-minute session, Kyabje Rinpoche connects the 12 limbs of dependent origination to the Buddhist framework of grounds and paths—a connection he emphasizes as particularly significant. Through dialogue with students, he explores why ārya beings (enlightened practitioners) no longer accumulate impelling karma despite retaining some self-grasping: because direct perception of emptiness acts as a powerful antidote to ignorance grasping at self. He distinguishes impelling karma from non-virtuous karma, and clarifies that not all ignorance grasping at self falls within the 12 limbs. Using examples from daily life, he examines how virtuous action and sincere study of emptiness can arise without accumulating impelling karma, while repeatedly urging students to examine their own behavior rather than judge others. For those with some grounding in Buddhist philosophy.

File metadata (for organising)

File: 12 Limbs D1PM – KR.mp3

UUID: 180adee9-76eb-4612-aaf7-ecf1ed3e79ca

Teacher: Kyabje Rinpoche

Collection: Dependent Origination

Recorded at: Tibetan Buddhist Institute, Adelaide

Words: ~4,565

So it is very helpful to formulate the 12 limbs in terms of grounds and paths. Chris, could you please ask Carol to make a cup of tea for the Geshe? He’s a teacher here. I think which cup of tea, just cup of tea or like just a little bit, you know, sweet tea. Not too much sugar.

Yeah. Sorry, you know, actually. Then even though the terms of grounds and paths in the lamrim are somewhat different, the meaning is identical. So this morning, Geshe-la explained the three first limbs, ignorance, compositional factors, and consciousness, but he would like to connect the topic of the 12 limbs to grounds and paths, this is really quite significant. So the first limb, which is ignorance within the 12 limbs of of interdependent arising, is abandoned at which level within the subdivisions of grounds and paths.

It is an abandonment of the path of meditation. And here, according to Cittamātra, actually the ignorance within the 12 limbs of dependent origination is none other than the afflicted mind. Specifically, it is ignorance within the nine mental factors associated with the afflicted mind. Now if we endeavor to present the ignorance within the 12 limbs from the standpoint of the grounds and paths, as Geshe-la explained, it is an abandonment of the path of meditation. Specifically, this ignorance is innate ignorance.

Now is it the case that all innate ignorances are innate ignorances within the 12 limbs of interdependent origination? No. It is not the case. And instances can be given at the level of the path of seeing. How’s it going?

So as is said in Vasubandhu’s Abhidharmakośa, once one has seen truth, there is no impelling. This means that ārya beings on any of the three vehicles no longer accumulate any impelling karma. So it is also said that while on the paths of seeing and of meditation, one accumulates karma. One no longer accumulates impelling karma. And upon attaining the state of an arya, since afflictions have been abandoned, ignorance is abandoned from the root.

Therefore, cyclic existence no longer binds one. It’s a beautiful present. If we’re able to set this presentation within our minds, then it is really something which is extraordinary. So you do understand therefore that within the 12 limbs of dependent origination, those who accumulate impelling karma are necessarily below the state of an ārya being. As is said in Lamrim Chenmo, these are beings on the path of preparation below, in other words, beings like us.

So Geshe-la is gonna make you think, because if you think you won’t sleep. So as is said, once one has seen truth, one no longer is impelled. Impelled here means, one no longer accumulates impelling karma. In other words, ārya beings do not accumulate impelling karma, only ordinary beings do. What is your understanding of the mode of accumulation of impelling karma?

So what is the reason for which ārya beings no longer accumulate impelling karma? Why? It’s not enough to realize emptiness. So the question is, why don’t Ārya beings accumulate impelling karma anymore? Okay.

Good to think about it. They no longer see as an object to be imputing itself upon because they have the antidote which is the non conceptual insight into emptiness. Seeing the emptiness person of the. Therefore, there is no basis upon which to create impelling karma. Alright I’m just gonna have a go.

So at that point the afflicted mind has taken on mirror like, it has transformed into mirror like wisdom. Yeah. I’m too early, aren’t I? Okay. We can do it.

Yeah. Sorry. Okay. Okay, so the object of ignorance appears in the aspect of being a self sufficient autonomous person. That appearance that divides the universe into I and other, mine and theirs, that is the basis for the compositional factor of desire or of attachment or anger.

And that is what infuses the consciousness with karmic imprints. And so if the aspect of a self sufficient autonomous person is counted, there is no basis for the operation of attachment and aversion which would be the grounds for infusing consciousness with impelling karma. Okay. So for a being on the path of seeing, the reason for which there would be no longer any impelling karma is because impending karma is motivated by the ignorance grasping at a self. Now, we act under the sway of our minds.

Our minds are under sway of the afflictions, and the afflictions arise from the ignorance grasping at a self. Once that is countered, then these afflictions no longer arise. So we act under the sway of the ignorance grasping at an I. Ārya beings have generated a direct realization of emptiness, and this direct realization of emptiness has a mode of apprehension which is directly opposite to that of the mode of apprehension of the I by the ignorance which grasps at an I. Therefore, the direct realization of emptiness acts as an antidote to this ignorance which grasps at an eye, and the more powerful it is, the weaker that ignorance is.

Then someone said, in answer to Geshe-la’s question, it is because they realized emptiness. That is insufficient. There are ordinary beings who have realized emptiness. ārya beings have a direct perception of emptiness. In other words, they see emptiness the way we see things, nakedly as it were.

And as a result of this, this acts as a powerful antidote to the ignorance grasping at an eye or at a self. Now in our own cases, even though we criticize ignorance grasping at an eye or a self, it is overwhelmingly powerful within our minds. The relation between the ignorance grasping at itself and the direct perception realizing selflessness is one of greater or lesser strength. As one increases, the other decreases in reciprocal. So therefore, in whose mind does the ignorance within the 12 limbs of dependent arising exist?

Within the minds of all beings on the path of preparation and below. In other words, within the minds of all ordinary beings. Now, even though there is no impelling karma within the mind of an ārya being, nonetheless self grasping does exist. You do want to think about that. Do you understand?

In the mind of an ārya being. Where? In whose mind? Who? Who is I I have been?

Which are you being? Which which? Three types of vehicles. Right? Three ārya beings.

So which one? Hero aria being, a solitary realizer, or bodhisattva? Okay, so only a bodhisattva has really So within the three vehicles, right, in the mind of an Ārya Bodhisattva on the Bodhisattva vehicle, there definitely is self grasping, but there cannot be self-cherishing. But within the vehicle of hearers and solitary realizers, you also have aryas. Right?

So within the minds of these ārya beings, there is both self grasping and self-cherishing. Then Geshe-la, I would like to ask you to refine your doubts and to ask pure questions. In other words, questions which are really sharp and on topic. The paths of seeing and meditation are not continuous, so why cannot an ārya being generate impelling karma when in states outside of meditative equipoise? What do mean by non continuous?

Well they’re not continuously perceiving emptiness in every moment as I understand it. So in the states outside of meditative equipoise, when ignorance is present, why wouldn’t they generate impelling karma? No. ārya beings do not accumulate impelling karma even during the subsequent attainment. You have the two distinctions, an uninterrupted path and a subsequent attainment simply because having gained direct insight and emptiness, the eye no longer appears to them whether they’re drinking tea or anything.

They have no sense of this I. I thought that it hadn’t been completely abandoned and so there was possibly enough of a trace of it there for it to still appear. So, indeed, that is true. They have not abandoned the ignorance grasping at a self. That the ignorance grasping at the self which remains is the innate ignorance grasping at the self.

But that ignorance grasping at the self, they do not act upon. They do not follow it. Like you have very powerful afflictions in your mind, Geshe-la was saying, then you don’t act on them. Right? So then apart from the term eye, there is really no grasping at an I at all within the mind stream of an aria being.

Then they do not act on it unlike ourselves. Not sure if this is a sharp doubt or not, but, so an arya being cannot accumulate impelling karma, but would there still be impelling karma accumulated previously prior to having become an art that can then still impel rebirth in cyclic existence? That’s a good question. There’s a consensus in both of the traditions that of and that of with that once one has attained the state of an arya being, there is no accumulation of impelling karma. Also says that there is no previous impelling karma left.

Disagrees. Mhmm. The question. Where is it? Speaker.

Have they purified that impelling karma? Who? The ārya beings. So as I said, once one has seen truth, there is no impelling. In other words, they do not need to purify these impelling karma if there were any remaining because they no longer accumulate any and they’re not operative.

So the reason therefore for which there is no impelling karma left within the mind stream of an Ārya being. The reason for which no impelling karma is accumulated anymore is because an Ārya being has not only realized selflessness, but has realized selflessness by means of a non conceptual consciousness. Those has had a direct perception of selflessness, and this acts as a direct antidote to the ignorance grasping at a self. So that is that. And then, as Geshe-la explained, the ignorance within the 12 limbs exists only within the continuum of ordinary beings.

Now the question is, is all self grasping within the mind of an ordinary being necessarily an ignorance within the 12 limbs or not? What are you saying? The Geshe-la’s question is, if something is an ignorance grasping at the self in the continuum of an ordinary being, is it necessarily the ignorance within the 12 limbs or not? So to say yes then. What to defeat?

What to defeat? Well just a little bit before, Geshe-la did say that there was you know once in Ārya Bodhisattva or the Ārya beings of Hearer or Pratyekabuddha that there is self grasping still in their minds, in their mind streams even though we know that to reach that arya place that they have to have had a direct realization of emptiness and therefore they have extinguished self grasping, they haven’t extinguished it perhaps at its root. What is your answer? Well I’m going to say no. Why?

Well, are we talking about just ignorance or ignorance grasping at a self? The question is, is the ignorance grasping at the self in the mind of an ordinary being always ignorance within the 12 limbs or not? In an ordinary being? Yes, an ordinary Yes, definitely. A non aria being, that’s an ordinary being.

Oh, non arya being, yes. Correct. Sorry, it’s hard to keep track. I’m gonna say no because the ignorance of the 12 limbs refers to projecting karma, which is a projecting cause whereas there are ignorances that are not necessarily the basis for projecting karmas. There are other negative karmas that we can produce that are not projecting.

What’s the example, the contradiction In you the continuum of the normal being. Those other damn road users that get in Those my other road users for example, that are in my way, it’s my road and yeah, I’m a better driver than them. You’re saying that’s not agreements with 12 limbs. Hope not. Okay, I yeah.

Jill. I would say no as well. There’s different, because if it was the case that all grasping at herself, the ignorance grasping at herself was the ignorance within the 12 limbs, then we have ordinary beings self grasping all the time so every moment of that self grasping would then cause us to be impelled in another cycle of cyclic existence. I will. I was only joking before with the road rules.

But on the basis of an ignorance grasping at herself, we can engage in virtuous actions that are not motivated by a wish for a better rebirth but for a wish for liberation. And that would be, that would not be an impelling karma. Because as I understand impelling karma necessarily entails rebirth in cyclic existence whereas a wish for liberation would not be result in a rebirth in cyclic existence. So you’re saying no. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. So there can exist an aspiration for liberation motivated by the ignorance grasping at the self. Claire? So if ignorance is wrong view, then no.

Okay. Oh, great. I have a question? I suppose the question can be turned around as to whether the first limb necessarily requires the second and third to be linked to that first limb. So in the circumstances in which all three limbs are engaged, then you have impelling karma.

I’m questioning whether when the first limb is engaged, necessarily the second and third are also in the absence of the second and third limb being engaged or being linked to the engagement of the first limb, but raising the question as to whether impelling karma results. So if the first team is engaged and the second and third are not, then? Well then, the answer would be no. I’m begging the question as to whether that in fact is capable of arising. So if arise if in dependence on the ignorance grasping at a self out of a profound wish for happiness, we engage in an ethics which is an abandonment of the 10 non virtuous deeds, then that ethics gives rise to impelling karma, doesn’t it?

So so when we understanding the faults of the afflictions and wishing to be freed from them, aim for a liberation. And to do this, try to understand the source of the afflictions, and as much as we can engage in a study and meditation of emptiness, that is not motivated by the ignorance grasping at a self. Therefore, there are numerous cases of the ignorance grasping at a self within our mind stream, which are not included within the ignorance within the 12 limbs. So at this point, we are endeavoring to find a counter, an antidote to the ignorance at a self, and therefore, this ignorance grasping at a self is not included within the ignorance grasping at the self within the 12 limbs. Because it is said in that when reflecting repeatedly on the fault of the afflictions and trying to find its source and reflecting on emptiness which counters this, this does not act as an impelling cause for cyclic existence.

Do you understand? Sure? Oh, yeah. So it is said in the Lamrim that even though Ārya beings do not accumulate impelling karma, nonetheless, they can accumulate non virtuous karma. What do you think of this?

Sorry. Can you just say that again? It’s not a question. It’s a statement. So it is said in the Lamrim that even though Ārya cannot accumulate impelling karma, nonetheless, they can still accumulate non virtuous karma.

What do you think? So what is this mode of accumulation of non virtuous karma within an Ārya who on the one hand cannot accumulate impelling karma, but on the other hand can accumulate non virtuous karma? Craving for example that leads to desire or anger. The story of the Buddha in a past life who saw that the, on the ship, saw that the captain of the ship was about to kill a lot of the 400 people or so. So he killed the captain to avoid this captain accruing all this negative karma but in the act of killing the captain, he created non virtue, did a non virtuous act.

So it’s the answer is similar to the one you gave, but we do not know whether Buddha was an ārya being or not at that point. He probably was an ordinary being. Now ārya beings can engage in such deeds for the sake of others. So take the example of your children. Yeah.

Then when your children don’t act in keeping with your wishes, then an anger which is born out of empathy for the child, and also out of self grasping arises, doesn’t it? You got a lot of kids, all of you. You don’t have experience in that? So you’ve had this experience many times with your children. Then what happens is that the base motivation is empathy or love for the child, but the superficial motivation, there’s some anger.

Mhmm. This must happen with Ārya Bodhisattvas. This is how I want you to think about it. So we can therefore accumulate both virtuous and non virtuous impelling karma in this fashion, and this through habituation deposits a potency, an imprint, if you wish, a habit within the mind. So for instance, when we study the Lamrim, then as a result of this study, one’s mind or if you prefer one’s eye improves, then this is a similarly of how the accumulation of karma would proceed.

Do you understand? So when we speak of accumulating impelling karma which causes a rebirth in the lower realm, what do you understand as such karma? Yes. When we speak of accumulating impelling karma which causes a rebirth in the lower realms, . What is the mode of accumulation of this karma?

Mode of accumulation is, would be repeated habituation to non virtue which causes degeneration in the mind and that would then lead to impelling karma creating rebirth in the lower realms. Karma which impels a rebirth in the lower realms must be powerful karma. Strong karma. Yes, so my understanding would be that first of all I would have a strong wish to hurt somebody for example and so then I make a plan to how I’m going to hurt that person because I want to deprive them of their happiness and then based on my motivation and then my planning, I would then carry out the deed of hurting that person physically and then that deed having resulted in their death, that would create a very powerful cause for me to have impelling karma to go to the lower realms in my next rebirth or in a future rebirth. So therefore, impelling karma must be such a powerful karma.

The impelling karma for a lower rebirth must be such a powerful karma. It is not a casual non virtuous Such a powerful non-virtuous deed, which acts as an impelling karma for a lower rebirth would have to involve a human being as a recipient. And one have to wish to either kill or badly harm the happiness of this human being, and as a result of this, one will be reborn in the lower realms. Yeah, because that’s what I was thinking just before you said that, is that what about like rejoicing and going fishing, you know, so if it is the connection with an animal, would then it be that strong that you could actually be reborn as a fish or have some karma with that fish because you’ve hunted it and rejoiced in it and eaten Definitely you accumulate non virtuous karma through that. Whether you accumulate non virtuous impelling karma is open to doubt.

Definitely you accumulate the cause for a lower rebirth. But you need a powerful cause, a powerful karma. Clearly, if you have murdered someone, you have accumulated the non virtuous impelling karma for a lower rebirth. So the non virtuous karma that I’ve created from fishing, for example. So if I have strong regret now and refrain from that, will that help to purify that negative karma that I’ve created?

You need to apply all four forces completely. If there is strong regret and strong restraint, yes. The fundamental components in the four antidotes of the four forces are powerful regret or repentance and powerful restraint. If they are present, then the four forces are complete. And therefore, accumulating karma is akin to that formation of habits, and the accumulated potency must be blended with the mind, not with any mind, but with a subtle mind.

Then if we were to blend it with a coarse mind, probably tomorrow we would not recollect it. Therefore, these potencies or imprints must be infused or deposited in a subtle mind. This is a a mind which will be present, for instance, after we wake up. After we wake up, we remember what we wanted to do before going to sleep. Otherwise, if they are deposited in a coarse mind, probably they will not subsist.

In Cittamātra, this subtle mind, is the base in which impelling karma and karmic imprints are deposited is the ālāyavijñāna or the mind basis of all. Then even if we do not wish to use this term, the meaning of the subtle mind is the same. If you have questions, please ask them now and then we will stop for the day. The example I gave before about driving. It perhaps wasn’t a suitable example but what I was trying to demonstrate was maybe a light or casual non virtuous deed that would qualify as being motivated by an ignorance that wouldn’t be included in 12 limbs of an ordinary being.

So is it the case that such deeds that deposit imprint into a coarse mind, but are still motivated by an ignorance grasping at a self would qualify as an ignorance which isn’t included within 12 limbs for an ordinary being? Yes. Small non virtuous deeds like that would not become impelling karmas. Right? What beings other than a human being creates powerful, impelling karma.

There are many. Don’t animals kill human beings? They have everything. The motivation to kill the children’s over there. So animals have a sufficient mental capacity for creating a powerful compelling They have the motivation to kill a human being.

They have the capacity. That’s enough. Then I think your question is if an animal kills another animal, does it accumulate a powerful non virtuous impelling karma? Geshe-la says, non virtuous karma, it definitely accumulates in that way, but whether it accumulates an impelling karma, that’s another question. Then in accumulating powerful impelling karmas, the issues are the power of the base for instance.

Then in this world, killing a human being is a great crime. Killing an animal doesn’t count for anything, right? Animals do kill their parents though, and Sorry? Animals kill their parents and other beings that would be important to them. Probably.

Are they kill humans as well? Question is regarding ignorance and it’s based around the entry in the great treatises on the stages of the path to enlightenment. There’s a line in there that says that Dharmakīrti explanation of the ignorance as a misapprehension of the meaning of reality. But that considers it to be an ignorance that is merely confusion about the meaning of reality. I was wondering if Geshe la could clarify that please.

Both are valid, both presentations of ignorance as mental factors in this context are valid. Sorry, but what’s the difference between the two? One’s misapprehension of the meaning of reality and the other one’s merely a confusion? I don’t understand if there is a difference. So Je Tsongkhapa’s presentation is in terms of the ignorance grasping at a self.

Now according to Dharmakīrti, all afflictions are ignorance. There are numerous modes of assertion of what ignorance is in function of the schools of tenets. Mhmm. And this presentation of ignorance is in keeping with. Just to clarify the base, there’s a man in Kangaroo Island who hates cats and just kills all the cats and he then stuffs them or he makes hats out of them but his main aim is to kill cats and he gets great rejoicing out of killing cats.

Is that strong enough to impound him to a lower realm? No. He would not accumulate the karma for a lower rebirth. He’s creating causes for a lower rebirth, but not accumulating the karma which impels a lower rebirth. Hey, Geshe-la.

I’m just thinking about the powerful impelling karma of killing another person involving those four aspects. And would the same level of impelling karma be resulting from committing suicide as murdering somebody else? Do they incur the same level of impelling karma? Probably, yes. Probably through suicide, you accumulate the karma of a lower rebirth.

Please don’t suicide. Just joking. I was just gonna say that the gentleman on Kangaroo Island, I think his motivation killing cats is to protect the cats that introduced species and the cats are killing the native animals. So I think that’s his motivation so there’s a mixture of motivation. Wonder what the karmic effect would that be.

So everything depends on his motivation. If he is killing cats with a thought that cats kill a lot a lot of other living beings, then the superficial motivation is bad, but the profound motivation is not. There are a lot of these cat slayers in Australia? There are lots of cats in Kangaroo Island. Why?

They breed. They breed as cats. I’m thinking of kangaroos and wandering. I don’t know. It’s very small.

Yeah, yeah, okay. I think stop here. Yeah, any question? Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Just to distinguish between the creating, not creating impelling karma but creating negative karma, can Geshe-la just differentiate like the gentleman with the, say the cats, he’s not creating impelling karma to the lower realms but nevertheless creating negative So in dependence on non virtuous karma, after our death, we will experience some type of suffering. For that reason, it is called non virtuous karma. So Geshe-la would like to point something out to you. He has noticed that you always give other people as examples, you but never give yourselves and your behavior as examples. Then other people do not concern you.

It is your own behavior which should concern you, and you should think about modifying your own behavior. Tomorrow, Geshe-la will explain the eighth, ninth, and tenth limb craving, appropriation, and existence, and we will try to illustrate them from our own experience because that is what matters. So Geshe-la asked me to explain to you maybe tomorrow the fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh limbs. The limb of name and form of the six sources of contact and sensation in terms of embryology, then the issue is basically the projector. If we get the projector to work, I’ll show you some slides, otherwise we’ll have to talk about it.

And lot of you are mothers, you should know this firsthand. Sorry? So the impelling and establishing causes are mainly causes, whereas the impelled and established ones are overwhelmingly results. So there’s a lot of very nice we see if we can fix this for tomorrow. Very nice pictures of embryology.

Okay. Thank you.

Key terms in this teaching

Cittamatra sem tsam pa (Tib)

The Mind Only school, one of the two Mahayana (Great Vehicle) philosophical schools. The Mind Only school does not accept external objects but does assert truly established self-knowers. LYWA

dependent origination pratityasamutpada (Skt); ten drel (Tib)

Also called dependent arising. The way that the self and phenomena exist conventionally as relative and interdependent. LYWA

grounds and paths sa lam (Tib)

Various advanced mental states that are achieved through meditation and practice. LYWA

lamrim

The graduated path. A presentation of Shakyamuni Buddha’s teachings in a form suitable for the step-by-step training of a disciple. LYWA

path of meditation bhavana-marga (Skt); gom lam (Tib)

The fourth of the five paths leading to buddhahood. LYWA

path of preparation prayoga-marga (Skt); jor lam (Tib)

The second of the five paths leading to buddhahood. LYWA

pratyekabuddha rang sang gye (Tib)

A solitary realizer or self-realizer; a Hinayana practitioner who attains liberation from cyclic existence autonomously, without relying on an external teacher or teachings. Cf. shravaka. LYWA

self-grasping dag dzin (Tib)

The mind that apprehends the self as inherently existent. This refers to both the self of persons and the self of phenomena. LYWA

Definitions adapted from the Lama Yeshe Wisdom Archive glossary, as taught in the Gelug tradition.